In this episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, in the latest installment of The Power of Your Personal Brand Series, we’re turning over the hosting to multi-time guest Scott Mautz. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!
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The Power of Your Personal Brand Series: The Podcast Takeover with Scott Mautz
We just launched our new book! You can grab The Power of Your Personal Brand: A Playbook for Struggling Middle Managers Who Want to Do Big Things on Amazon or at ForthRight-People.com
In the latest installment of The Power of Your Personal Brand Series, we’re doing something a bit risky…we’re turning over the hosting to multi-time guest Scott Mautz, esteemed Author and the writer of our foreword. We told him he could interview us about the book, and he promised to be gentle with us. We’ll let you be the judge. We hope you enjoy us getting EVEN MORE vulnerable about all things book + Personal Brand. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
- Anne and April chose to be vulnerable in the book to show the realness of the struggle
- You need other people to achieve your big goals and dreams
- Personal brand forces you to get clear on what you want to be an expert on
- The book’s personal brand framework: characteristics, appearance, behaviors, actions
- Middle managers are in a fishbowl with the least control, so personal brand and trust-building are critical
And as always, if you need help in building your Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
Show Notes
- The Power of Your Personal Brand Series: The Podcast Takeover with Scott Mautz
- [0:29] Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business
- [00:55] We’re letting Scott Mautzwe’re turning over the hosting to multi-time guest Scott Mautz, former P&G executive turned author and speaker, take over the show
- [01:52] Scott asks Anne and April to define what a personal brand is and isn’t
- [03:46] A personal brand is not creating yourself from scratch, it’s building from the inside out
- [05:14] Personal brand is about identifying your core characteristics and how you show up through behaviors and actions
- [06:32] You have to start from a place of self-awareness, not judgment, when building your personal brand
- [08:21] There’s often an existential crisis when moving from doer to leader that makes you question your personal brand
- [10:44] Middle managers are the target audience because the “struggle” of personal branding is universal at that level
- [13:25] The book aims to help people feel seen in their personal brand journey instead of telling them to “fake it till you make it”
- [15:13] Research shows vulnerability is the #1 trait people want in leaders today
- [17:04] Anne and April chose to be vulnerable in the book to show the realness of the struggle
- [19:54] The struggle is part of the journey that defines and molds you
- [22:14] Middle managers are in a fishbowl with the least control, so personal brand and trust-building are critical
- [24:28] Knowing your personal brand helps you show up consistently so your team knows what to expect
- [26:44] The book’s personal brand framework: characteristics, appearance, behaviors, actions
- [31:03] Modulating behaviors, not changing them entirely, is key to showing up authentically
- [33:18] Use your personal brand to build relationships through predictability and trust
- [36:42] The book unexpectedly advises using personal brand to build thought leadership
- [39:07] Having a clear personal brand point of view is essential for thought leadership
- [41:03] Personal brand forces you to get clear on what you want to be an expert on
- [44:18] Personal brand is a tool to clarify the path to what truly makes you happy and fulfilled
- [46:13] You need other people to achieve your big goals and dreams
- [49:57] Take a deep breath, give yourself grace, and know that building a personal brand is a journey
- [52:15] Be curious, allow yourself to be aware, don’t judge – start to self-diagnose your personal brand
- [55:24] Start the process of discovering your personal brand and you’ll be surprised how quickly clarity comes
- [56:23] Early support and Amazon reviews are critical for a book’s success
- [57:47] Put the insights from this episode into action to move your business forward
- Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
- Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn
What is Strategic Counsel?
Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Prepare for honest, direct, and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business. Referred to by some listeners as an “MBA in podcast form,” this show is dense with personal stories, proven strategies contextualized by practical steps, and tools to put what you learn into action now.
Your hosts Anne Candido and April Martini are Co-Founders of ForthRight People, a leadership performance company focused on developing leaders from the inside out. They are also Authors of the book: The Power of Your Personal Brand: A Playbook for Struggling Middle Managers Who Want to Do Big Things. They thrive on engagement from listeners and welcome any show topics! So, reach out and connect!
Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic.
Transcript
Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Council by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team and your business. Now let’s get to it.
00:29
Welcome to the Strategic Council Podcast. I’m Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And today we continue our series, The Power of Your Personal Brand. Now this series is based on our new book, The Power of Your Personal Brand, a playbook for struggling middle managers who want to do big things. And today we’re to do something a bit risky. All right, we haven’t done this before. We’re turning over the hosting of our podcast to the one and only Scott Mountz.
00:55
He is the esteemed author and the writer of our forward and he’s going to interview us about the book and he promised he would be gentle with us. Gentle ish. We’re going to make this a tell all I’m going. I’m going for the deep dark celebrity stuff first right out of the gate. Well, and Scott’s also a two time guest, our first two time guest, and if he wants to be a third, then. I get it. uh
01:24
But in all seriousness Scott, it’s great to have you back on Can you remind the listeners a little bit about your story beyond what and just shared? Yeah, you bet. I’m a former Procter & Gamble executive that about a dozen years ago decided to uh leave the confines behind and uh Start a start my own business doing what I really want to do in life Which is help others become an even better version of themselves through this, you know spoken and the written word and I’ve been doing that about a dozen years I’ve been
01:52
lucky enough to have a number of books out there and blessed enough to be linked with you two wonderful ladies who we’ve known, I’ve known for quite some time now, quite some time. And I’ve enjoyed watching you guys flourish and grow along the way. Well, I think we’re the testaments to the fact that your little foray after the PNG side of your life has totally worked out for you because here we are. Yeah, we’re coming a long way. And so obviously.
02:21
big fans of yours and just so thrilled that you’ve come onto the podcast. And with that, we’re going to turn the hosting seat over to you and hope for the best. Fantastic. Well, our listeners out there, I promise you, you want to pull over if you’re driving because this is going to be that riveting. I can promise you. know, so here’s where I wanted to kind of go first, you know, in April. I mean, you guys have written an important book and.
02:49
It’s the power of your personal brand. It’s a playbook for struggling middle managers who want to do really big things. And we’ll talk more about big things in a minute. I want to step back for a second and talk about the concept of a brand as a person. I think a lot of people understand. I know what my favorite car brand is. I know my favorite soda brand. I know my favorite brand of fast food. But the idea of a brand as a person is not always instantly understood. And I have found there’s as much misunderstanding.
03:18
as there is understanding of what a personal brand really means. So for your listeners, just to make sure we’re all on the same page, can you kind of define kind of what a personal brand is and isn’t? Yeah, I’ll kick it off and then April will jump in. I mean, for our listeners, they know that’s exactly how we operate and we’re all going to have something to say about everything. So here we go. You brought up a really important point, Scott, that I want to start with and you used
03:46
Brands that we’re familiar with as a kind of a proxy for branding. And that’s actually something that April and I talk about a lot in the book, that we can’t just create ourselves from scratch like you can a brand that you see on the shelf. And that’s because we actually already exist. And that’s the one thing that we think that a lot of people and struggling mental managers specifically really miss out on in understanding that
04:15
Your competitive advantage is really within you. And if you are able to harness that and able to build your personal brand from the inside out, not from the outside in, which is a very common way that a lot of people approach personal brand, you do, you get that competitive advantage. You become the best version of you. that is, mean, nobody else can compete with that. And there’s elements of the personal brand that are important that we distinguish. And I’ll let April talk about that because that’s a really,
04:44
important distinction of how we define personal brand. So April, I’ll turn it over to you. Yeah, I mean, just to build real quick on what you said, when we started this journey, we did do our homework and did an audit of, think we read 23 different books focused on this topic. And they lived in two camps. One was what Anne said about, OK, this is how you productize and create a brand, right? We’re like, well, that doesn’t work. Or this is how you create a persona and they would gloss over the brand.
05:14
And so this was kind of our litmus test to say, do we really have something? And that leads to what we believe that looks like, right? And so, and hit on it, your superpowers when you really identify who you are at your core and those are your characteristics, neither good nor bad, just who you are fundamentally. And from there,
05:35
those things manifest in your appearance and how you show up in the world. And we always talk about how everybody else’s perception is their reality. So you really have to be focused on that and harnessing it for yourself. And the way to do that is through your behaviors and actions. And that’s how you show up every single day in every interaction. The book itself is very focused on professionally, but it does apply in your entire life. And so if you can identify, which the book helps you do, your core characteristics.
06:04
You know how you want to appear. You take those behaviors and actions and really make sure that you’re intentional with them. And it’s not manipulative. It’s actually quite the opposite. It’s very authentic because like Ann said, it’s exactly who you are. Yeah. Well, say, you know, I want to kind of follow up on that, Ann and April, because you’re bringing up an interesting point that you start from a standpoint of understanding who you are. So what if we have a listener out there who is thinking, you know, I like the idea of a personal brand.
06:32
You know, and I want to develop it, but man, I sure don’t feel like a brand right now. Or I don’t like my brand or I don’t think other people like my brand. I get the sense from you. You have to and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you have to be careful not to start from a judging place and you have to be start from just a self-awareness place. Is that fair as you start the journey of building your brand? Yeah, I mean, I think that’s exactly it. Right. And.
06:59
Another segment of books and not that I want to talk about everybody else’s books, right? But is all of the personality books out there that diagnose you, right? And that’s where you get into these are good ones, these are bad ones. And then also leaning into, well, I should focus more on my quote unquote bad ones, right? And so when you ask about how do people figure it out or, you know, deal with the fact that they’re like, I don’t want to look in the mirror right now.
07:26
What we take away is all of that emotion surrounding it and the framework helps you really sit with yourself, which we all know can be uncomfortable, but it takes it to more of an objective place where you do different activities and look at your interactions and all kinds of different things in order to take a step back and say, okay, this is inherently, you know, the top five or six things that I believe are my personal characteristics. And since we say they’re neither good nor bad,
07:53
that’s where it becomes about like, okay, like let’s just shed all that emotion and the things that went on before and learn how to use them to your advantage. Because what frequently happens is people are either using their powers for evil or showing up in authentically through those characteristics. And so that it’s on each of us to learn how to manage that. And that’s the inside out approach. And just to build on that too, it’s really important to acknowledge too that there is usually a time
08:21
in everybody’s career where this really comes to a head and we almost have an existential crisis. So Scott, if you can rewind back to your P &G days when you’re sitting there as like an ABM, you’re going to the brand management side and you’re like, okay, I’m going from a doer to now a manager or a leader. And that totally changes the game for a lot of people because you have to think in a totally different way. And that’s what we really define by the quote unquote struggle. A lot of times you’ll see it in the book in air quotes because
08:51
It’s not necessarily like, hey, I’m dying here, although that is one end of the spectrum. A lot of it’s like, something’s just not going right or I’m stuck. And what got me here is not going to get me there where it’s not getting me there. So you’re getting the feedback from folks. It’s like, how come everybody now is giving me this different feedback? Like my performance is great. And for a lot of ambitious leaders or aspiring leaders and middle managers, yeah, your performance is great. But all of sudden,
09:19
These leaders are expecting other things from you and you’re now having to display how well you manage people, how well you lead teams, how well you define strategy. And a lot of times, you know, they’re like, I don’t even know what that means. So they start feeling judged, like they’re missing something, right? There’s just something that they’re missing and they’re like, and that becomes a place where it’s like then turns very internalized. What’s wrong with me? Am I not that good? Am I not going to survive here?
09:48
Am I not worthy? I not worthy? So and so seems to be doing better and they all like so and so why don’t they like me? I it starts to like kind of create this like aura and all of a sudden then we don’t know what to go do about it. Yeah, very, very well said. And what’s interesting, as you know, as you said, you kind of did a good job of kind of describing some of the struggle, you know, and I like that you guys use that term in the power of your personal brand, the book, you use that term to struggle on it. I could really identify with it through various
10:17
stages of my career. And what I think is really interesting that you guys have done is many people struggle in the workplace. Maybe no one more so than the most complicated, challenging leadership role of all, which is to be a middle manager. You know, for sure, I know a lot about this topic. You know, I’ve written a book leading from the middle. It’s part of why you guys had me involved in running your forward. You know, I know a lot about this topic, but
10:44
I thought it was very wise of you to focus on the struggling middle manager in particular as a target audience for this book. Not that, you know, a mom that uh doesn’t, isn’t a middle manager per se, can’t benefit from the principles, but not that, but your voice speaks primarily to that struggling middle manager. And I wanted to hear from you, you know, well, why, why did you write it for them? How did you narrow it down to them? Because it does feel like a sweet spot.
11:13
Yeah, I mean, we went around and around and around and you went around and around with us on this uh on this too. And even up to the very last minute, we were like, do we have this right? If we have it dialed in and we kept coming back to the fact that yes, we do. And the biggest reason is, I mean, my career at PNG was 20 years and I’m now 50, you know, and I’ve been out of PNG for eight years ago. What I went through at that point in time as a struggling mental manager.
11:41
What April went through as a struggling mental manager at her timeframe in the agency, what we see are the people we coach, what we see our clients go through, it’s still the same. Everybody goes through it. It doesn’t matter if it was 20 years ago or it was like 10 minutes ago, everybody is going through this. And the difference though right now is that we live in a world where I call it, and this might be a little controversial say, but it’s…
12:07
We have like a lot of positive washing going on, right? Where you’re almost not allowed to struggle because if you struggle, then there’s gotta be like, well, not allowed to struggle. I need to flip it to be something positive. So I need to be learning from it, growing from it, growth mindset, all those really wonderful things that are super important. But we sometimes then don’t acknowledge the fact that, oh my God, this is really hard. It is really hard. It’s requiring me to like really be vulnerable. It’s really acquiring me to be.
12:33
I’m highly aware, I have to acknowledge a lot of things that aren’t going right and it’s hard. And when people don’t feel like they can talk to other people about it because everybody’s, know, giving them the positive washing, know, mentorship coaching speech, we wanted to be the place where everybody’s, where they like, oh my God, they get me. They totally get me. This is exactly what I’m going through because every ambitious middle manager who gets to a leadership position goes through it.
13:01
a lot of times more than once. So we wanted to be that source for those people who they’re like, oh my God, they get me. And like I said, me and April have been through it. Our clients have been through it. Our coaching clients, our business clients, friends, colleagues, they’ve all gone through it. Yeah. I mean, I would just add that going back to the, it’s something nobody ever wants to talk about.
13:25
we were done with people feeling that something is wrong with me, right? And I think this is a place where Anne and I both really felt called to call it out. First of all, we named our company, Forthright People for a reason. We’re like, if we don’t go after it, are we honoring ourselves, right? But when I look back, the frustration for me, and it did happen multiple times to me, was all the wasted time, energy, and effort and all the questioning that went on.
13:51
And when you layer in the higher achiever piece, which Anne mentioned, in addition to that middle manager, if we double click down, right, like that is really what we’re talking about here. What a terrible place to put people in and kind of tell them to fake it till they make it, go figure it out. All these dumb things that people say, right? When we’re like, no, no, let’s help people out here. Let’s tell them about our experience. Let’s tell them about our clients. Let’s tell them about other people in the world that have built their personal brands.
14:17
And hopefully through those different lenses and the framework, people can be like, oh, thank goodness somebody finally sees me. Yeah, well, I think that’s very well said, oh April. I think you guys have chosen your target wisely. And I’m curious to see. want see if you agree with this statement. I recently came across some very, very interesting research. was follow up to research I was doing for my own work in the space of mental management. And it said that. Get ready for this.
14:46
The latest survey in today’s work world, there was a survey done of over 12,000 kind of employees that included managers and their bosses and their bosses’ bosses in the whole universe. And the survey found that today, the number one thing that people most want out of their leader, 73 % of people most want their leader to be vulnerable.
15:13
to show up that they don’t have all the answers, probably because people are struggling and they want to associate with someone who is also struggling, right, and is willing to admit it. And yet when you ask those same, if you ask a manager, do you think you’re vulnerable? You know, the data shows like 75 % of them believe they are. But when you ask their subordinates, only like 20 % of them say, yeah, my boss actually shows up as kind of, you know, willing to show his flaws or her flaws, you know, enough along the
15:42
So I’m kind of wondering, you guys really chose to show up as vulnerable in your book. And I’m wondering if that was a conscious decision because you have a sense of where the workplace is today and what it needs from its leaders, or if it just felt like a right thing to do. Some of the stories you tell in your book, I was like, wow, they really put it out there about themselves. April and Andy, you both share your own personal stories.
16:10
about when you had to change your own personal brand to continue to move forward with your career. just your thoughts on that. mean, you’re going to get the theme throughout this conversation of how much Ann and I debate, right? We’re really going to stand in our lanes when it’s about the work, when it’s about the business. We spend a lot of time going back and forth. And this was one of the areas we talked about. And I’m sure Ann will get into her personal pet peeve. But I have a similar one around when people try to stand on high and tell you to do something.
16:38
but there’s no, I’ve been through it. This is something that I firmly internally believe within myself. This is part of my journey and my story. And so it feels like it’s a little bit out of touch, right? And so for us, we were like, number one, if this is who we’re gonna go after, we’re gonna go all in. And as a big part of that, it was about including who we are.
17:04
And yes, we can do the analysis all day long, right? We were branders and marketers forever. We could do everybody else’s case study. We could talk about our clients without talking about our clients, right? We could give those examples, but it just felt then to me like we were one step removed. I mean, I will say it’s been a vulnerable thing. Like I have taken some snapshots of pages and sent it to people and in most cases said thank you for the positive ones, right? The not so good ones, I’m not reaching out to them.
17:34
But it gives me pause to even do that, to be like, I’m vulnerable enough to say I went through this in this instance. And as I’m reading it back and I’m holding it as a real thing, it still hits me. But I still 1000 % believe it was the right thing to do because I don’t think anyone would buy it otherwise. Yeah, right. And it’s the right thing. mean, mean, vulnerability, it looks like truth and it feels like bravery. And you guys both did that. And it looked like you were about to say something.
18:00
Yeah, I was just going to say, from my own personal perspective, again, when me and April were trying to figure out what kind of book we wanted to have, and we did all that research, there’s two, and you might have a different perspective, Scott, and be interested, but there’s two different positions somebody can take when writing a book. They either take the position of the expert or they take the position of the curator. We wanted to be the position of the expert, and I am an expert in struggle.
18:27
I mean, I feel like my 20 years at PNG were like, just struggle upon struggle upon struggle. So like, I am the best test case for somebody who was clearly not kind of fit for the PNG style in that PNG world and was constantly hitting against roadblocks, was constantly being given that well-meaning coaching and mentoring about how I needed to change and how that made me feel.
18:56
and how that still to this day, I still have residual feelings and reactions that show up. I’m like, where is that coming from? I’m like, oh yeah, that coming back from my days at P &G when I didn’t feel like I could stand up for myself, because every time I stood up for myself or I tried to give a point of view or I tried to be direct, I was told I was not being collaborative. And so those things get deeply seated, especially, I mean, my formative years were there. I started when I was 22.
19:26
I think, you know, and I spent 20 years there. I grew up there, right? And so I think it’s hard for us sometimes to disassociate the environment from who we are when it’s been so intertwined for so long. And so I wanted people to see, hey, I mean, the struggle is real. I mean, it really is real. And here is how I got through it. It’s not necessarily pretty. It’s not necessarily elegant. It’s not necessarily perfect.
19:54
but I was able to get through it and look where I am now. And if I hadn’t gone through that struggle, I wouldn’t be where I am now. I I bless like every day for the struggle. I mean, I could have taken a little bit less, I’ll be honest. But like, mean, but it made me who I am and it’s shaped who I am. And I think people need to also realize that the struggle is part of the journey. It is part of like what defines you, what molds you, what chisels you, however, know, whatever analogy you wanna use.
20:24
And if you can embrace that, you can use it as we’ve been talking like as a superpower, as a leverage point to create that competitive advantage. So I thought it was really important in April, and I already agreed that using I, it makes it a whole lot more tangible, a lot more authentic than to sanitize it with the generic, know, stories of curated experiences that just feel arbitrary.
20:51
Yeah, so listeners, I really want to make sure that that you you get a moment to reflect on what and April just been saying your personal brand, if I understand it right, your personal brand. It is not exposed by your struggle, it is strengthened by your struggle. Thousand percent. And so if you’re out there listening and thinking, you know, again, I want to get to work on my personal brand, but I have so many things to fix.
21:18
It’s the clarity I take when I read your book, the power of your personal brand. One of the things that took away is it’s the clarity of defining what’s really important to you. Being honest about where you’re struggling as you talk about and refining and reshaping that is all part of what makes your brand over the long term clear and more powerful. It doesn’t weaken it. And I just wanted listeners to really take that away. Another thing I wanted to get you to see if you guys agree with us.
21:45
Middle managers, we have talked about this before, maybe even on the show, I can’t remember, middle managers, of course, they’re at the intersection of the horizontal and vertical information and activity flow in any organization. so while that’s blessing because you get the chance to lead in every direction up, down and across the organization, it can also be a bit of a curse because you’re on television. It is life in a fishbowl. You are the fish in a fishbowl and so many people are watching.
22:14
And I think that your personal brand matters because of that, even more for the middle manager. Do you agree with that? And is that also why you selected that group as part of your target audience? Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. mean, it is the position that has the least amount of control. And that is the biggest aha moment. And I mean, I remember
22:40
at P &G how I really, really wanted to be a section head. I mean, I was just dying to be a section head. I everything I lived and breathed it. woke up every day. And then one day I woke up and I looked at my section head and I’m like, oh my God, I don’t want that job. She has no control. She’s sitting here trying to manage us and she’s trying to manage us up and she has no control whatsoever. And it was a defining moment for me that
23:07
what this job was going to entail. I went to be a middle manager at a different function. This happened to be the R &D function. But all that being said, in that position, the most important thing is being able to cultivate trust. Trust for your direct reports or your team or whoever you’re leading and then trust from…
23:31
management above and then even like you said sideways, your colleagues and everybody else that you’re trying to build advocacy from and trust can only come for consistency and consistency can only come if you are working from a place of grounded confidence, knowing who you are and knowing what reputation you want to cultivate, knowing what kind of image that you want to have and that keeps you grounded. That’s the place to source.
24:00
that you can always go back to. And that helps you to be able to navigate what this struggle is going to really challenge you on all different aspects and facets from, leading others or leading a team all the way up to having to manage up and then managing out. Yeah. And I would say from the agency perspective, you’re exactly right, Scott. This is when the spotlight’s on you. Right. And so
24:28
When I think back on my experience, P &G is one of the powerhouses from a structure. Here’s the bands, here’s the levels, here’s the, you know, and that’s one way of doing it. On the agency side, we’re on the complete opposite, right? So not only is the spotlight on you, but the expectations are always a moving target. And then pair that with, a lot of times people leading agencies don’t have a business background.
24:56
or never received training in leadership and management. And if they did, it was kind of on their own, right? So at that level, was like, all of a sudden people were like, well, you’re senior enough that you should know this without anyone telling you how. Also, we’re kind of measuring you to see if you’re gonna make it to the next level. Right, right. At all. Or if you’re just gonna stay a doer and that’s what you’re gonna do.
25:23
Right. Or we get your badge handed back to you. exactly. Exactly. And there’s one track and that track is to manage people. And so, you know, I just remember looking around and being like, OK, what do I do? And that to the point about your brand strengthening at that point, right? There’s a whole host of things that I didn’t do well, which is, again, part of the point of the book. Learn from us. Right. But one of the things that I remember
25:52
realizing during that time was, I don’t think any of this is really right. So where am going to find it? I’m going to have to figure out what is it to me, right? And that was everything from, I don’t want to pitch work that we actually don’t know how to do to, I’m going to have to figure out outside of this organization how to lead people because I’m looking around and I’m not sure what we’re doing here, right? We’re pitting people against each other. It was a lot of bad behavior.
26:19
And so I think it is just it’s like all this. remember going in one day and being like, what has changed? Like Anne said and being like, oh, shoot, I got the promotion, but now I’m supposed to be doing a job that I don’t have any training in. I have to imagine so many of the listeners are are nodding along, not nodding off, nodding along. Let’s hope not. They’re pulled over on the highway sleeping now because of what you say brings so true even to me to this day.
26:49
I want to shift gears. Let’s play a little game. Let me do a little bit of speed round here. Listeners, these wonderful authors have put together a very powerful personal brand framework. And it works. It’s backed by research, logic, knowledge, experience. I have used it myself personally. And it has to do, it kind of breaks down into the core elements are you have to think about your characteristics, your appearance, your behaviors, and your actions.
27:18
And we obviously are going to get time to go through the whole thing in detail. can get the book, the power of your personal brand for that. So I want to do a speed round. So I’m going to go back and forth and April. And I’m just going to ask you could I highlight some of the key points about each element of this personal brand framework? So, and we’ll start with you. Personal brand framework starts with characteristics. Talk about that as crisply and as quickly as you can to the listener. What are the most important things they need to know about?
27:45
Yeah, characteristics as April said are neither good nor bad. They just are what they are and they make you you. That could be your values. It can be your points of view. It could be your experiences. It’s all of those things that kind of coalesce that define who you are. And it requires self-awareness and probably even bravery to define that. Is that fair, Ann? A thousand percent. And a lot of times you already know what they are. You just don’t acknowledge them. So it takes a little bit of…
28:12
Just kind of waking up to a little bit and realizing that these have probably been baked in for a pretty long time and they’re probably not going to change. So you just kind of acknowledge them. Yeah, and that’s OK. And you may want to make some adjustments in the world you’re in, but you have to start with the truth of who you are. It sounds like 1000%. Yeah, make sense. Speed round. Ding April. next piece of the brand. We’ll see how this goes. You can never be succinct. Alright Scott, I got some coaching before this by my PR friend Ann. Alright, go. That’s good.
28:41
Personal brand framework, also talk another besides characteristics. The second element is appearance. And so tell the listener the biggest things they need to know about that. Yeah. So while we say you can’t control your characteristics, they are who you are. Appearance is kind of the bridge by which you can start to control how you’re showing up. But in this phase, what we often encourage people to do is to really get granular and think about instances where they show up.
29:10
Where did I show up like I wanted to? Where did I not? What were other people’s reactions? How am I appearing overall as a whole person and do some homework there to start to think about what Anne said, which is how are you going to start to manage these in order to be effective? Is it fair to say, April, you’re not dictating a style that is required for strong personal branding. You’re not doing that. You’re asking for self-awareness of what the situation calls for and what the individual
29:38
is comfortable with and is true to what they want to project. Is that accurate? Yeah, we say when you start to try to fabricate, it’s a persona, which means it’s fake by nature. Right. So this is the whole verbally, visually, people don’t always like to give you feedback on this because it might be physically how you look, you all of those different components. But it’s about getting really in tune with all of that. How do I look? How do I sound? How do I stand up in a room? How do I command presence or not? And what is the
30:06
receptivity of the folks in the room and is it what I want them to be receiving? Ding, speed round continues. Another element of the personal brand framework is the behaviors that you bring to the table in a given situation and environment. Anne, give me the highlights on that. Yeah, behaviors and actions. This is ultimately how you show up. So it is how the world sees you. It’s your reputation. And we say reputation is what people say about you, good or bad.
30:33
when you’re not in the room. And it is really what starts to shape the way that you are relating to the world around you. And so you blend behaviors and actions together as one school. Is that the way to think about it? Yeah, because it’s hard to distinguish. And a lot of times people put them together anyway. you know, behavior being I’m always late to the action is I’m always late because it just all starts to kind of blend together.
31:03
So we just let people see it as a whole instead of trying to rock their brains, just trying to distinguish between the two. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Ding, congratulations, you passed the speed round. Now, either one of you, what’s the difference between you having your book, a personal brand framework, then you have a personal brand playbook, which you can download a workbook from your site that allows you to do that. Tell me about the interaction between those two things. Yeah, so I said.
31:30
earlier in the conversation about tools and things to help you get there and work through it. That’s really what the workbook is meant to do. So the framework itself is really strategically what Anne and I believe is the definition of personal brand and the components that make it up and something that we believe we own very distinctly versus the, I’m going to create it like a product, I’m going to create a persona, right? The workbook is meant for you to work through alongside the book.
31:58
And there are moments in there where you’re cued to do so in order to have different ways to think about it. Because in our work, what we’ve learned is that not everybody thinks and processes everything the same way. So the same way we tried to give our stories, stories of our clients, other people’s personal brands, so that you kind of have different ways to think about it, the workbook’s the same. Yes, ultimately, we want everyone to do the whole thing and work through it.
32:22
But it helps kind of with that double click of, here’s the philosophy and then what do I go and do with that so that people can simultaneously work through it alongside going through the book. Yeah, and we see, know, research shows more and more that people learn when they get a chance to do. And I think we’ve all heard the statistic that you’re 40 % more likely to remember something that you write down versus just listen to. So I think it was a very wise decision. And you look like you were going to say something there. I always look like I’m going to say something.
32:51
So that’s thanks for noticing that Scott. That’s my, want to say something face. Just to build on that. And this kind of goes back to the behaviors and actions a little bit too, because a lot of times when people will read the book or we talk about personal brand, they’ll say, well, isn’t that being manipulative? And April is at the very beginning. And I, even some of my stories and I’m very like explicit in the book about how I’m not being manipulative because what
33:21
What happens a lot of times when we struggle is that you have well-meaning mentors and coaches who will try to tell you how you should be in order to fix the problem. You should go be like so and so or find somebody that you admire and be more like them. And that really takes us out of who we are at our core. So that’s kind of developing a personal brand from the outside in, which again, we call a persona. What that starts to do is that starts to really…
33:48
Contrive our behaviors and actions and that’s where the inconsistencies come from that’s where people start kind of like Talking to you like hey, you’re moving target one day. You’re like this the next day you’re like that So and it starts to kind of create that effect of nobody knows how to pin you down And that is what erodes that trust right and we can’t erode trust because trust is the way that we build relationships So what this does is it brings you back and it helps you to see your characteristics on a spectrum
34:18
Right. So me and April use these examples all the time. I’ll say I’m a direct person. Being direct is neither good nor bad. In certain situations, if I’m direct, it could have a good or bad impact. It may or may not move me towards my big thing or my goal for that conversation. So we’re not saying don’t be direct. We’re talking about in your behaviors and your behaviors and actions to modulate how you are direct and consider the environment. Consider the person you’re talking to.
34:48
But a direct person is never going to be like, well, what’s the opposite of direct passive? Like I tried that. It does not work. Yeah. So you just have to, and that’s the thing though, people are like, oh, I’m not going to be so I’m not like, no, you’re just modulating on the spectrum for the environment that you’re in because your goal is to achieve some sort of aim. And if that is your goal, then you need to make sure you take responsibility for how your message is received.
35:16
So I wanted to bring up that point and that’s what the workbook really helps you to develop into that playbook is like, okay, recognizing where that is happening, figuring out how I can still use what’s within me to modulate that behavior. So I’m still being consistent. I’m just being consistent in much more intentional way. Yeah, it’s not unlike, and in April is this fair, it’s not unlike, let’s go back to the traditional definition of a brand with a product, you know,
35:45
I don’t know, pick a brand that everyone loves. don’t know. Mini Cooper is a heart brand for a lot of people. Mini Cooper knows how its brand needs to show up to the people that are their target audience. I think what you’re saying is it’s not about being an insincere version of you. It’s about understanding where on the spectrum you need to show up that’s comfortable for you and genuine and true.
36:12
but to project yourself with the right brand and the right image at the right time. Just like a powerful marketing brand would do, right? Is that fair? Well, we say if you don’t define your personal brand yourself, someone else will do it for that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. I found that to be true. Sort of along those same lines, one of the things I find very, very interesting, I mean, really interesting, and I didn’t expect it really when I first read your manuscript about the power of your personal brand, your book, the power of your personal brand is.
36:42
You guys, you go beyond what the reader would expect. boy, I sure hope if I buy a book with that title, I’m going to get oh something that teaches me how to build a powerful brand so I can get to my big thing that I want in life. And I want to come back and talk about that in a minute. What I didn’t expect was the advice that you guys include, very smart advice on how I, by building my personal brand, I can build stronger relationships.
37:10
I can even become a thought leader, which is probably also directly linked to the big thing you want to accomplish. So let’s break that down for a second. Tell me about how I could use my personal brand to build relationships, because that was new territory for me. Yeah, it goes back to the trust thing. if we’re operating as a moving target, it’s really hard to build relationships because people need some level of predictability.
37:40
in order to be able to have a relationship with you. you, this is especially if you’re a leader and you have your team, all right? So if your team knows that these certain things trigger you, they can then be proactive and make sure that the way that they’re behaving doesn’t trigger you. If there’s something different that triggers you every day, they’re in a constant state of chaos. You cannot develop a relationship like that because there’s no basis for trust.
38:09
because it’s too inconsistent. So when you operate from the place of personal brain, you’re operating from a place again of grounded confidence that allows you to express who you are in an authentic way. And this is, think in April, we’ll back me up on it, the true definition of authenticity, right? We talk about authenticity in many different facets. It’s almost a buzzword, but this is a true element of authenticity that allows you then to express yourself in a consistent way. So people are like, ah,
38:38
I mean, I kind of know how Anne operates. I know what makes her tick. I know what her beliefs are. know if I show up late, she’s gonna be mad. Or I know if I’m able to express and bring a new idea, she’s gonna be really happy, because she’s a big idea thinker. That starts to create some predictability, consistency that then leads to trust, and that’s how you build relationships. Yeah, and I would say too, the…
39:07
You are a moving target because you don’t know what your personal brand is. you, so you, you don’t have any, what’s the thing of the flag in the stand or April, you’re in your analogies and you’re better at those than me. But what I’m trying to say is if you don’t know who you are, how is someone else supposed to know who you are? And we go as far in the way that we do work with others as to tell them our personal brand. So, and how it will come to life.
39:37
So then in those situations, people know what to do. So as an example for me, I am very direct. I would be a terrible coach if I spoke to everyone with the same directness. I tell them that from the beginning, and then I tell them that they have to help me modulate as we get to know each other. And then I also stop in certain situations when I realize, oh, that was too far, or they didn’t hear me, or, I say, okay, I don’t think I’m being the right level of direct. Let’s back up.
40:06
Tell me what you just heard. So it’s really about using it again as an objective tool and framework with others. oh So then they feel like they can be who they are in return and they’re not sitting there like Ann said with like, are they gonna fly out the handle or they get, know, like what version am I gonna get today? It’s not that, it’s not only will they show up authentically but they will help me experience them the right way. And I think that’s part of the vulnerability too.
40:35
Yeah, and it’s just something that I never had thought of with personal brand and genuinely, I really thought it was uh very, very insightful, very unexpected. I found the same to be true of your advice on using personal brand to build thought leadership. And, know, you guys really get into the ways you can do it. You can turn into a teacher, you can develop your center of expertise for all those wannabe influencers out there. can develop, you know, content, you can just execute with excellence. I found it.
41:03
Very interesting. Can you say a little bit more about that to the listener about what do you what you mean by using your personal brand to build thought leadership within your your world your organization? Well, I think we our belief is that it’s kind of non-negotiable, right? It’s not only that it’s Possible it’s that you have to do it and therefore that’s why we kind of broke it down into different ways that you could do it so that it can authentically tie to your brand right so part of
41:31
being a leader is having a strong point of view and standing in it authentically and consistently. And so that thought leadership thing becomes huge and we have more channels than ever to do it, which I think also makes people shy away, right? So it’s like, get to know yourself, get to know the type of thought leader you can be through your personal brand and then choose the channels that work with that. And it’s another piece that we see on the persona side that’s often broken. It’s like people leap to the
42:01
Okay, personal brand, here’s four questions. Okay, if you want to show up on Instagram like this, go find a person that shows up like that and then mirror what they do, right? It’s like versus I’m identifying my personal Yes, yes, yes, all of that. Well, and just to get really tactical as April was starting to get, I mean, we get questions all the time. It’s like, how do I improve my LinkedIn presence? It comes from the state of having a very clear personal brand with a very clear point of view.
42:29
And as April said, I’m like, if you’re going to develop leadership and you want people to know you and respect you and have that reputation and that credibility, you have to have it based on something. It just doesn’t arbitrarily get created. And so you have to be able to express what your thoughts are on certain topics. Have a stated, I think you were going to say, stake in the ground, Stake in the ground. Thank you very much. Stake in the ground of what you stand for, what’s important.
42:57
What is your positioning on certain things that maybe it’s for your industry, maybe it’s on other topics, but you start to kind of curate that content based on what is important for you and that those things get intrinsically linked. So then when people see things like personal brand, we want them to think Anna and April. Anna and April are the thought leaders on personal brand. So we develop podcast episodes on that. We develop content on that. develop, I mean,
43:23
All of that is like baked into what we want to be experts on. And instead of like people do it the other way around, like again, getting really tactical on LinkedIn, for example, when they just like stuff or they reshare stuff. like, shouldn’t, I mean, this is a little tip. You shouldn’t reshare anything unless you have something to add to it. Right? So add a little bit of point of view about why is it important to you? What are you sharing it for? How does this align or not align with, you know,
43:51
who you are as a person and how you lead and what your leadership style is. That’s what starts to kind of cultivate that thought leadership. So based on what you’re saying on that, Anne and April, from what I’m taking away and what I’m hearing, and tell me if I have this right then, your personal brand, when it comes to building your thought leadership, it’s not just about creating a brand that positions you in the eyes of others as a thought leader. Sure, that’s a good thing, and who doesn’t want that? But it’s
44:18
The exercise of wanting to do that forces you to get clear on what the heck do you want to be an expert on to begin with? Exactly. What do you want to be known for to begin with? And whether or not that translates into you’re the company’s expert on IT or AI is besides the point of sometimes of your personal brand. could just be the tool that helps you get clarity on what the heck your brand is and what you want it to be. Is that fair? that right? Yeah, a thousand percent. And what it really starts uncovering is what your talents are.
44:48
Yes, right. And those talents are part of your personal brand or part of your characteristics. And they’re so critically important. And a lot of people don’t understand what their talents are or they undervalue what their talents are. Yeah, right. And so this helps to kind of uncover what those are. And to the point of being a teacher, it also helps you understand where there is a gap, where there’s resistance. And it helps you to understand, OK, how do I need to teach?
45:16
in order for people to understand what I’m trying to do here or who I’m trying to be here in order to achieve a certain goal. Yeah, it’s amazing how many times people’s talents are actually blind spots for them. Right, isn’t that funny? Isn’t that the truth of that April? That’s exactly right. They can’t believe that truth about them or perhaps they believe if they can recognize it, they’ll undersell its importance to other people, even not to themselves. I totally agree with that April.
45:44
But we’ll believe every bad thing somebody says about us, though. Yes, yes. Well, I don’t like that, right? You can tell me 58 good things and you tell me one, oh hey, and think about this. Guess what thing I’ll think about for the next six months. So, you know, as we run the corner, head for home, if somebody was going to ask me uh and in April, you know, look, I’ve had the benefit of being able to have read The Power of Your Personal Brand, a playbook for struggling middle managers who want to do big things. If they were to ask me, hey, why?
46:13
Why do I need this book? Scott, why do you endorse it? Why do you write the four? What’s in it for me? Because I’ve had the advantage, I would say simply, it allows you, my friend, to achieve big things. Now, the listeners out there haven’t read your book yet. They will soon. What does that mean? Can you explain for them? That’s inside code for us right now when I say it allows you to achieve big things. What does that mean for the reader?
46:41
Well, big things are goals and dreams, but we always caveat that with it’s what helps you feel fulfilled, right? It’s what you seek for personal sense of fulfillment. And we use personal almost with a capital letters, just like we do personal brand, because a lot of folks will undermine again, what is important to them for the better good. So this book gives you permission to think about what is it for you?
47:11
is put you on this earth. What drives you to wake up in the morning? What gets you into flow? All those really important questions that help you to really, and leads you to another, again, another big P word, which is purpose, right? Which is a word that scares all of us. It’s one that I’m personally working through and another struggle that I have and purpose.
47:37
It helps you to really understand what that looks like and honor that and accept that and acknowledge that because a lot of times we’ll kind of push that to the side because we think we need to compromise in order to do what’s best for our families or um help ourselves in the short term or whatever that excuses in the moment. And I’m not saying it’s not a real excuse and I don’t use excuses being a bad thing.
48:06
those could be very legit things, but it does sidetrack us from really internalizing what is important for us and really acknowledging that we can do more than one thing. We can be more than just a mom or a dad, or we can be more than just a spouse. We can be more than a caregiver. We are allowed to be more than, and that might be something within our career. It could be something within a business. It could be lots of those different things.
48:32
So the book helps you to really start to get clarity around that because that becomes the guiding light for your personal brand is how you orient your personal brand. And it becomes the why for why you’re doing it, for why you’re going through that struggle, for why you want to manage and accept the fact that you have responsibility for the way that you show up. Because a lot of times it’s hard. A lot of times you wanna be like, I don’t really care what they think of me.
48:58
But your big thing is like, well, then I guess your big thing isn’t that important. You don’t really care about what people think of you, right? So it becomes one of those like that guiding light, that anchor that helps you to orient your personal brand and gives you that personal why. know, and I want to clarify something when you just said then, April, I want to hear you build on and I want to make sure the listeners take this away properly the way that I did if I did get it right, which is based on what you’re just saying, the personal brand is
49:28
It’s not just about getting other people to buy you as a brand or to buy into you. Although, of course, that’s a good thing. It can also be much more personal. It could be simply about clarifying the path that you’re going to need to take to what truly makes you happy in life. Other people be damned. Is that accurate? Well, it’s actually a little bit different, Scott. So it’s based on the premise that you need other people to achieve your goals and dreams.
49:57
You can’t do it alone. So people can’t be damned. can’t, you can’t because a lot of times that’s what we want to do. It’s like, I don’t, I don’t really care. That’s their problem. That’s their problem. They don’t like what I have to say. They don’t like the way I show up. That’s their problem. But actually it’s your problem. If you want to achieve your goal and dream, because a hundred percent of goals and dreams require other people’s participation. Got it. Okay. So, and you want to get their participation from them buying into you, believing in you.
50:23
finding you have have value, finding that you’re worthy, finding all those things. And you can only do that if you show up with your competitive advantage that they can then see, oh, I see the value here. Oh, I see the worthiness. And it’s not that you’re proving yourself. That’s not what this is about. This is about showing up in a way that is aligned with what you want your perception to be. And then that puts you on the journey to your big thing. And fulfillment. And fulfillment, and joy, and happiness.
50:53
And yeah, okay, makes sense. April, did you wanna add to that? Yeah, so I would say just tactically, the idea of this is that it becomes a practice, right? You know yourself so well, so you tackle many big things over the course of time. And we say it’s okay for those big things to be bigger and smaller big things along the way, right? It’s just what is your next thing for yourself?
51:19
But the other thing I find to my previous point about helping others come along with you on the journey of your personal brand, when you know it and you set your big thing, you can then explain it to people better, which helps with what Anne was just talking about around getting them on board, right? So if I tell my spouse, I want a promotion, period, right? But the spouse is like, well, that’s gonna take you away from us and that’s gonna whatever, whatever.
51:46
That’s one way. I talk about it through, this is my personal brand and I can’t not go after this next thing because of X, Y and Z and I will be better for our family because very different conversation. as an example. makes a lot of sense to me. Ladies, I have one last question for you and then I want to have an ask of our listeners. So I’m hoping that the people that were listening to your wisdom today are convinced now that, OK, I get it. I get what a personal brand is.
52:15
I get how I go about it generally. I know why I want to do it. I know what it is and know what it isn’t. What do I do now? How do I go activate a personal brand to the best of my ability? What’s your kind of closing and parting instructions for your listeners? Okay, so we say we’ll go by the book. I’m going to say that right now, right? Ebook is also a book book on Amazon. So there’s our plug for that. Tell them where they can find it, April. On Amazon. Yeah.
52:41
Okay. Search the name, the book’s name, right? Search the book’s name on Amazon pops up. Yep. And the playbook’s on our website. Yeah, I was going to go there next to the playbook is on the website for you to download. But what we tell people is take a deep breath, give yourself some grace. This is a process. So it does require work. Again, we’re forthright. We’re not going to tell you this is so easy to just, you know, that’s those other tools where it’s like, go create a persona and try it out. Right. You need to do the hard work on yourself.
53:11
but you have existed as yourself for as long as you’ve been on this earth, like Anne said before. And this is gonna take some time and some reflection and probably some input from other people. So take that deep breath and just go get started. Don’t think that you have to create, which this is something the achiever and me would do. I would buy this thing, download the workbook and in one week I would be finished. That is not the way to do this, right?
53:38
So just know that going in and also know that you should enjoy or appreciate at least the journey to getting there as much as being there and knowing what your personal brand is. Very well said. Anne, what would you add to that? I would just add be curious. That is the quintessential attribute that shifts this whole thing for so many people. When things go well, ask yourself.
54:05
Why, did that go so well? What was it about the way that I showed up here that helped that to go well? When things don’t go well, be like, well, that didn’t go so well. Why wouldn’t, know, why didn’t that go so well? How did I show up? Was there something about the way that I showed up? And start to just kind of self-diagnose. That could be very uncomfortable, but we kind of say you’re workshopping yourself a little bit.
54:28
So you just allow yourself to be curious, allow yourself to be aware. Don’t judge it initially. It doesn’t need to be judged. Like we said, these are neither good nor bad. They’re either leading you towards the path to your big thing or leading it away. So that’s a really good place to just start and just start to kind of journal. We also have an assessment on our website that you can download. It just kind of starts to give you like a little bit of an understanding about where your blind spots might be, where things are like, oh.
54:57
I didn’t know that about myself or I’m like, oh, you know what? I am actually really good at that. You know, and so it starts to just kind of give you some sense of awareness about where your personal brand is right now in a place to start from. Yeah, my experience with that, what you’re talking about is it slowly made it feel less daunting. It does feel, okay, wow, I got to come up with a personal brand. That seems hard. And I’m not saying that it is or it isn’t hard or it’s easier or not. All I know is that
55:24
You it really April’s right and right you just start you just get going and then you would be surprised how fast the process flows and how quickly you can come to clarity listeners The book is the power of your personal brand a playbook for struggling middle managers who want to do big things and I want to thank both of you ladies for letting me take over your show and totally screwing it up today and I want to the listeners for a favor and an April did not know I was going to do this
55:53
They did not but I can tell you as an author you cannot underestimate the importance of early support for a book and also leaving a review on Amazon. Let me explain why. It is very difficult as an author to ask people for a review. It feels disingenuous. It’s not. uh They want an honest review because I know they believe in the quality of the book and I can tell you when you read it, I would be very proud to have you leave the review that I know you’re going to leave and I know they would too.
56:23
But it matters folks because in the online retailing world the more uh reviews that you can get put into the system, the more people that could see the power of the book, the more people that tell other people there’s some algorithmic things that happen with how often a book will appear in people’s feeds based on it. I could go on and on and on. So do not underestimate the power of not only buying early for our friends and in April, but leaving the review on Amazon and honest review.
56:52
on Amazon, we know, I know that you’re gonna love the book. So that’ll be a good thing, Anna and April. Leave that review. It only takes you a minute or two. You would be shocked at the difference it can make for these two authors who are trying so hard to get their important work into the world. Other than that, everybody, thank you. Get out there, build your personal brand and go achieve really big things. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Scott. I mean, that was fun. I mean,
57:20
fantastic conversation we survived. So it was kind of interesting being in the hot seat, but I think, you know, it was a good way of being able to share with you guys um the book and the content within the book. I just want to thank Scott for his really thoughtful way that he approached this episode. And even though this does sound self-serving, I’ll sign us off like I usually do.
57:47
And with that, we encourage you to take at least one powerful insight you heard, hopefully you heard a ton of them, and put it into practice. Remember, strategic counsel is only effective if you put it into action. Did we spark something with this episode that you want to talk about further? Reach out to us through our website, forthright-people.com. We can help you customize what you have heard to move your business. And make sure to follow or subscribe to strategic counsel on your favorite podcast platform.