How to Leverage AI Marketing to Own Your POV with Patrice Greene & Kathy Macchi, Inverta: Show Notes & Transcript

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

In this episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, you’ll learn how to leverage AI marketing to own your POV with Patrice Greene & Kathy Macchi of Inverta. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!

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How to Leverage AI Marketing to Own Your POV with Patrice Greene & Kathy Macchi, Inverta

AI is pulling from Large Language Models (LLMs), which means what it generates is really an amalgamation of what already exists. It’s hard to own the attribution of this content. And, it often comes off sounding like AI and not you. But, what if you were intentional in the way you train AI to represent you in voice and POV? This could be a game-changer. We wanted you to learn from a couple experts who know how to leverage AI marketing to own your POV, so we welcomed on Patrice Greene & Kathy Macchi, the Co-Founders of Inverta. They’re the #1 AI-powered B2B growth marketing agency. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• It’s not “AI marketing,” it’s just marketing
• Hiring for aptitude and curiosity over pure marketing skill in an AI-enabled world
• How to own your POV: AI helps with research/competitive intel, but the actual point of view must come from the brand itself
• Marketing is experiential
• ICP-first approach: understanding who’s actually buying and retaining before building segments and messaging

And as always, if you need help in building your Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• How to Leverage AI Marketing to Own Your POV with Patrice Greene & Kathy Macchi, Inverta
  • [0:29] Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business
  • [01:23] Welcome Patrice Green and Kathy Macchi of Inverta
  • [04:07] It’s not “AI marketing,” it’s just marketing
  • [06:48] The danger of individual, ungoverned AI usage creating “AI slop“
  • [08:12] AI is good at generating copy, not creating a point of view
  • [11:22] Case study: Using AI to support BDRs (business development reps) with research and synthesis
  • [14:11] Two camps on AI replacing BDRs: full automation vs. subject matter experts reviewing AI output
  • [17:00] Hiring for aptitude and curiosity over pure marketing skill in an AI-enabled world
  • [19:53] Concern: If junior roles are automated away, how will future marketing leaders gain experiential training?
  • [22:35] Marketing is experiential — “do you Google know it or does Claude know it?”
  • [26:49] Moving from random AI experimentation to AI-enabled marketing systems requires real process work
  • [29:16] How to own your POV: AI helps with research/competitive intel, but the actual point of view must come from the brand itself
  • [34:12] Writing is thinking and the real value is deciding what’s worth saying, not just producing content
  • [36:36] Anne’s example: the ICP/messaging chicken-and-egg loop and why marketing expertise must set the starting point
  • [38:31] ICP-first approach: understanding who’s actually buying and retaining before building segments and messaging
  • [41:20] AI can’t overcome bad strategy
  • [43:13] Redirecting clients from product-feature messaging to audience pain points and business imperatives
  • [46:34] Marketing’s internal silos (SEO, events, demand, product) each see a different piece of the puzzle
  • [49:35] Cross-functional alignment within marketing teams is deprioritized but hugely impactful work
  • [52:07] Practical tip: don’t start with a content use case — start with a workflow and build better inputs first
  • Quick-Fire Questions
  • [54:18] What big things are they hoping to accomplish this year?
  • [55:10] Where are Patrice and Kathy’s individual happy places?
  • [55:40] Who is one person that it could be alive or dead that you would like to spend an hour with?
  • [58:03] How to learn more about Inverta
  • Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
  • Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

What is Strategic Counsel?

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic. 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team and your business. Now let’s get to it.

00:29
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel podcast. I am Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And today we’re going to talk about how to use AI marketing to own your POV or your point of view. The challenge with AI is that it’s pulling from large language models. So that means what’s generated is really an amalgamation of what already exists. So it’s hard to own the attribution of this content. And what’s more, it oftentimes comes off sounding more like AI than you.

00:58
Yes, but what if you were intentional in the way you train AI to represent you in both voice and point of view? This could be a game changer, right? It could optimize and streamline your sales and marketing, for example. It could also boost the efficiency and productivity of your team and all of this without investing in your own algorithm. Yeah, this is exciting, I think, you know, for two people who have been

01:23
slowly evolving into this whole AI world, but I think this one’s gonna be pretty exciting. And for this episode, we have brought on two experts to discuss this topic and that’s Kathy Macchi and Patrice Greene from Inverta. So Cathy and Patrice, you wanna introduce yourself and give the listeners a bit of your story? Sure. Patrice, you’re always first, know, that. I know, I’m always the first to go. Just like me and April. We always have, you know, nominated first too.

01:50
So Patrice Green, am co-founder with Kathy of Inverta and I wear the CEO hat here. uh My background is, will spare you all the details, but just know I got into the B2B space in the early days of marketing automation and was one of the first partners of a platform called Eloqua, which is the dinosaur of marketing automation, early days of Marketo. And so it was just at the forefront of B2B marketers adopting marketing automation and marketing technology.

02:20
and have been on the side of supporting customers, i.e. consulting and professional services for 20 years now in the B2B space. So have seen a whole evolution of how tools are adopted and how they support strategy. And Cathy and I started this business because we felt like there were

02:42
a lot of strategists that didn’t really understand tools and didn’t understand business process and like the feasibility of how to make strategy happen. And there were a lot of systems integrators that were popping up that, you know, tell me what to do and I’ll implement it for you. But connecting strategy with technology and now AI continues to be, em you know, a struggle for a lot of organizations. And that’s really where we live. We live at the intersection of that. Love that. I’ll let Kathy give her background. And that’s why she goes first. She has a great job.

03:10
So my path in was a little bit different. I come from an IT background. So my focus is more helping companies fix sort of the operating system behind marketing. So who are they trying to reach? What do you want buyers to believe? How do you plan campaigns? How do you use the tech and data? How to measure whether anything we’re doing is creating growth. And so really, fourth thing, I think, especially with AI, forcing companies to rethink how they look at how marketing works. That’s sort of my background.

03:38
Yes. um I love what you said, Patrice, about the strategist that, know, that companies don’t have the strategy that understands the tools. So I think that’s going to be a really key here in our conversation because both you guys bringing the expertise that’s needed to do a 360 degree surround sound around this topic. So we’re going to hit it from all angles today. So let’s start, and Patrice, about just talking about AI marketing in general.

04:07
Besides the efficiency it brings, why else is it critical for businesses to integrate AI marketing? So it’s interesting. I think the first thing I would say is, I don’t know if we consider it AI marketing, right? It’s marketing and we all have to do good marketing and we have tools in our toolbox in order to evolve and mature and advance ah the practice, right, of marketing. And in the past, you know, like I talked about, we’ve had marketing automation come onto the scene and now obviously,

04:37
fully recognizing AI is more impactful than probably previous advancements in technology. But ultimately it is a tool or, you know, that can be leveraged to enhance how we think about marketing. And that’s both how we think about it from a strategy perspective as well as how we operationalize marketing. just like that little thing that I think we try to clear up with.

05:01
our audiences is, you we don’t look at AI as a separate thing in marketing. It is a tool that we leverage for marketing. And it’s not just AI. I think it’s tech and data. So using marketing split between here are the operational people, here are the brand people. And I think what’s really changed now is people experience your brand now through AI, tech and data, which before they never did like.

05:23
They’ll see an ad, they come to your website, they score on your marketing automation system, they get routed to sales, it could trigger an email, they’re nurtured, this is all before they ever talk to a person. And so how you set up all those systems, those processing your data, those workflows, if they’re disconnected, the buyer feels it. Like that’s how they’re experiencing your company, your brand. So while efficiency is a big thing, I think AI just helps marketing in all those areas. So to Patrice’s point, it does underpin, you have to have good marketing to start.

05:53
and this can just help you take it to a different level. So definitely speaking our language on the marketing front and strategy pieces and said before and totally appreciate what you said, Patrice about it’s not AI marketing, it’s just marketing in general. So I would love if one, both of you could talk just a little bit more. Maybe it’s like a double click, right? To how do people start to think?

06:18
through this because what I where I’m coming from is we are seeing a lot of not great behavior in this way, right? Where people are just using AI. I’ll pick on AI for a minute, but systems, all the things, right? And they’re just kind of plugging and playing and saying, just put it out there. And it’s becoming obvious to a lot of us, right? Like I’ve had people reach out on LinkedIn and tell me, thank you for writing your own post. I can tell it’s you and not AI. So talk us through just, you know, how do you

06:48
orient yourself so that you are focused on the marketing piece first and then using these things as tools versus just kind of getting excited about the tools and letting them do their thing. I think that uh this has been a bit of like an evolution because that AI slop is what Kathy calls it, what a lot of people call it now, right? And slop that you see happening. Remember a year ago,

07:12
It was CEO mandates that were like, your team using AI, right? We need to be using AI. And so I think that, you know, because AI is so accessible to individuals, you see a lot of, you know, individual contributor, IC usage of AI, which can be really dangerous for a brand because there’s really not a lot of governance or control around it, which sort of leads, and I’ll pass the baton over to Cathy, which sort of leads to the areas that we focus on with our clients.

07:42
because oftentimes they now want to make sure that AI usage is leading to, or the leveraging AI is leading to business impact. And that oftentimes starts at, you know, your operations, your processes, all those types of things before you can really think about the impact it can drive on the business. But that sort of goes back to what Cathy was talking about. Yeah. I think the inputs make all the difference, but that’s what makes it harder to use. Like we’ve worked with some teams and they’re like, oh yeah, I’m using AI for content.

08:12
And you look and I’m like, okay, but they go, doesn’t really scale. doesn’t sound good. It’s like, okay, well, where do you have your brand guidelines? Where do you have all your customer conversations? Where do you have your value props? What do you have? And they’re like, well, we have not like, everyone know where they are? Well, no, not really. So those inputs, it’s a lot of work and you still need to be a good writer. Like it’s good at generating copy. It’s not good at creating a point of view. What’s your angle on it? Like, is this worth putting out there?

08:41
like Aple, to your point, what you put out that was worth, you thought, buyer’s time to look at. And then not, it’s sort of like marketers killed email. know, they just, just cause you can send a lot of emails doesn’t mean you should in the same thing. Like everyone just putting content out there. And so I think what you’re to come up to this, there’s only so much attention we all have. And so what is going to differentiate your content and just saying,

09:06
Hey, I’d create this and make it more conversational does not differentiate you. So that’s the stuff that you still have to bring to the table. mean, really knowing who is your audience? What do they care about? What do you want them to believe? And then what is your perspective? What does it make you different than what they’re hearing out there? And if you don’t have that AI is not going to help you at all. Like those are things that you have to your lack of differentiation. Yeah. We put it out there a hundred different ways how I have nothing to say.

09:35
Well, and I think that is that’s the downside of what people, as April had alluded to earlier, how people are using the tools and then they don’t understand why the tools aren’t working for them, right? Because they feel like it’s a server bullet that solves all their needs that they don’t necessarily didn’t have to have a writer. They don’t necessarily have to have someone who’s an expert at SEO because, you know, AI will just do it all for you. And there is a really big need.

10:03
between the human, the human intellect, the human understanding, human experience, and then how to use the tools appropriately in order to maximize and optimize your efforts, right? And I just want the record to show that even though we are not calling it AI marketing, I think that’s going to be a thing. And right now at this moment, this episode is establishing it as a thing because I think, you know, that’s going to be…

10:29
the wave of the future is that it’s going to be some sort of co-joined way of being able to market in a way that is collaborative. And so I’d like to talk about that because I’d like to kind of get a little bit tangible on what is this strategy, as you guys said, and what are the tools and how do we pair them together in order to maximize our efforts? How do we pair them together correctly in order to maximize our efforts? And so if you guys…

10:55
have some rules of thumb or some case studies that would really exemplify how you pair these things together to make them really work and what’s important for businesses to know and understand in order for it to work to its fullest potential? It’s a big question, so break it down. Yeah, I’m if we’re thinking use cases, like Kath, I’m thinking maybe like a BDR use case or something like that where you can kind of talk through the strategy about the solution was, I think that would be good. Yeah.

11:22
I think BDR is probably one of the first ones people picked up on. Kathy, can you explain what BDR is just in case people don’t know? Yes, that’s a good one. That’s a business development reps. They’re the ones when you get leads in marketing, you give it to these kids that are somewhere between the age of 22 and 27 to basically follow up on. And so they do their best job, but they really have no experience. You know, you have them to call VPs of all types of jobs or directors and they’re like,

11:51
They don’t know, they’ve never been in business long enough and you want them to have some relevant conversation. So I think the easiest one has been. And if you, if you look at the good BDRs, what do they end up doing? They go into Salesforce first, like, okay, and you just came in as a lead. I’m going to go in and see about your company. And if it’s like anyone else’s version of Salesforce, there’s stuff everywhere. You could spend 30 minutes to have, well, have we done business with them before? Have we ever had an opportunity? Has anyone else from that company ever been there?

12:21
Then if they’re really good, they’re going to do some research on you. So they’ll go out to the web. They might go out to demand base or Sixth Sense or other tools. So they’re going to five different places. And then they have to figure out what am going to reply back to them? And if they’re just generic, they go to outreach and just say, I’m going to send them email one, email two, email three. But if they’re good, they’re going to take all that information. What AI is good at is synthesis, pattern recognition, summaries, all that research support. You can get AI to go into all those tools.

12:50
Pull it out, pull out the key things. Learn about this person, pull their LinkedIn profile. Look at what the big imperatives are at that company. Look at their 10K, look at the annual report. Now craft something. And then you also have another, like I said, inputs are important. Here’s all my product marketing information. Now help me craft an email that’s going to follow up based on what I think their pay points. I get to know the buyer and how our solution helps them. And here’s some content I would recommend for them to read.

13:17
So helping like someone who doesn’t have that experience, like Patrice could do that. She could get a lead and say, okay, I know what to do. Patrice comes with 20 plus years experience. And so I think it really can be a good support for people new in the business. But what I’m hearing is let’s just replace our BDRs with AI. That’s what I was gonna ask. Well, and Anne, to answer your question and everything that Kathy just described, there is a whole body of work to figure out

13:47
What is the process? What’s the workflow? What are the inputs? Does the data need to be cleaned? And then there’s the change management, the training, the enablement, right? How do you operate in this world? And so it’s not as easy as here. You’ve got AI, start using it. There’s this whole body of work in order to ensure that it’s leveraged appropriately to deliver the end result that we’re all looking to deliver with it.

14:11
And so going back to Kathy, your point is that what you’re seeing happen that BDRs are being replaced by the tools? Cause and I’m asking this, right? Because I think this is a sample of where it’s not going to work and exploring that a little more. So we have had some clients get rid of a lot of BDRs and I’ve seen them have to hire some back. But what I’ve seen more is flat head count. So we’re not hiring. We’re not going to hire anymore.

14:40
Like this is it, we have a fine eye. And how can we have them work better, faster, smarter? But I will tell you, there’s been two camps on it. And I think both are valid. One camp is, I’m gonna really train my BDRs to do it. Like I’m gonna build in this automation, I’m gonna bring in tools. It takes a while, but, and then I’m gonna train them how to use the tools. The second camp has been, they’re 23 years old. Like what do they know? And they’re putting more SMEs, subject matter experts,

15:09
to have that AI output come to them, they’re reviewing it, they’re adding their expertise on it, but then the BDRs are more for it. Let me take this, I send it out, I do the follow-up like the day-to-day. And I think both are valid approaches. And I think this is what’s going to separate companies is everyone’s going to make a bet on how they want to leverage AI, and there’s going to be some winners and losers. I would also argue that we might’ve been a little inflated in the quantity.

15:36
of BDRs within an organization. As we went through a rise, I mean, I know some enterprise organizations that were standing up 120 person teams, right? And so I think we went through a rise of a massive, like when you think about PE money and all of that going into tech, SaaS companies, things like that, like, well, a lot of it went to hiring armies of BDRs. mean, you know, so to be fair, I think some that are looking at reducing headcount in BDR might not necessarily be the worst thing because we might’ve actually over-indexed.

16:07
um And now that we have tools and better processes that we can implement, you can kind of right size that. I’m speaking with a CEO hat on to like trying to manage cost structure, bottom line and rising costs with AI, right? So. Well, we talk about AI being FTEs to some capacity, like you full-time equivalents and being able to carry some of the load of what you would traditionally hire a person for.

16:32
But I’m super fascinated. I want to go back and dig in to this, the human aspect, because I think this is super important because what I heard you say, Cathy, and I’m going to, I’m going to pressure test this a little bit. And I’d like to discuss it. You know, we’ll be before, even from a BDR standpoint, or even from just like a straight old marketing standpoint, when you’re hiring junior marketers, you tend to hire marketers for skill, right? And then you kind of train them and what you want them to go do.

17:00
This is a very interesting potentially way of kind of changing the game up a little bit because it seems like in this case we can hire more for aptitude, right? They don’t necessarily need to be marketers at heart and you train them in process. So you train them on what you want the AI to return to you or what you need to go look at. And then if you’re analytical enough to really understand how to put all the pieces together,

17:30
in order to come up with your hypothesis or your ICP or positioning statement, that might be a different aptitude or like a different person than somebody who you would hire traditionally for marketing or for a traditional BDR position. So I put that out there for discussion, but what do you guys think about that? You know, it’s interesting. We had, I’ve had this discussion recently and

17:59
One person said, I hire for curiosity now. Like I want someone. And that was the main thing they look for. And I’m going to give you an example from coding. So Patrice knows my neighbor is a coder for one of the big tech companies. And they recently got in someone, a new college graduate. says, I’m constantly doing his code. He uses basically AI to write all the code, but he has no good code from bad code. goes, it’s bloated. I go back, I give him corrections. And he says, he just doesn’t seem.

18:28
Like, yeah, okay, I’ll just make that correction. And someone who’s more curious, be like, oh, well, let me learn from that where this person just seemed like, okay, I’ll just make that change. And he says, it’s so annoying. He goes, I ended up writing the code myself with AI, because it’s just not worth going back to him. So I think it’s a personality type that’s going to make a real difference for who’s in that job. Because this kid has never coded. He’s always used AI. So he doesn’t really know good code. He has bloated code.

18:55
To the point of not knowing good code and bad code, do want, cause I like 80 % agree with everything Anne’s saying. And then I’m like, but what about this, this concept, because I can think about any of our clients, Cathy, clients that we’ve worked with over and over and over again. And I’ve sat through them giving, you know, career advice at panels, at conferences and things like that. And you know, when you are, you sit in product marketing and you sit in demand.

19:23
and you sit in digital and you maybe even sat in, you know, marketing ops, who knows, rev ops, and you’ve worn all these because there’s so many different disciplines in marketing. The best marketing leaders who can help differentiate a brand, connect all the things at the top, do all the things that have the aptitude and like I’m hearing you talk about, it’s because they grew up learning, right? They went and almost did that rotational program at different marketing roles.

19:53
And so if we’re not going to hire at that level anymore, how are people going to get that experience? And so that’s just the only thing that I worry about. I agree with you. Like even in some areas of marketing, I just defer to other people. Like brand is not my thing. Like if Patrice came with me with five colors, I’d be like, like, I can’t give an informed opinion. Other things I’ll go to the mat for. Like, no. And so…

20:21
Could AI help me with that? could AI really, like if I were a writer, am I ever going to be a New Yorker writer or an Atlantic writer? No. Like they just have a different skillset that I will never have even with AI. Cause they won’t be able to evaluate the same way. Yeah. I mean, I think it is really interesting and we talk a lot about how marketers tend to be generalists, right? And so like you said, Patrice, with that rotation that you talked about, I think it is a really interesting discussion because

20:51
I mean, I was sitting with one of our nannies a couple of weeks ago and she has a new marketing degree, right? And she was like, well, I want to be you when I grow up. How do I go and do that? And I no longer have a good answer for what that looks like because the experience that I had in the pedigree I developed in doing all these rotations and I’m agency background, so more on the agency brand marketing side of things, that does not exist anymore. And people are not doing work like that anymore.

21:20
Right? Like that traditional strategist role and all of the things I learned to do as a result of that, it’s not there. so Anne and I talk all the time and we’re very aligned on hiring for aptitude. Kathy, we use curiosity too in the way that we talk about people. Right? Like we go in and reframe entire teams and say all these people have to go because they have a complete lack of those things. But I’m not sure.

21:44
how to fix that problem outside of the people on this call that have all the experience that can then share it with people. I don’t know what that necessarily When you do, you’ll really like, somebody’s Then I’ll be making the big bucks, right? Well, those are so equally important. Like I couldn’t agree more on the aptitude and the curiosity side, right? But it’s also like, there’s gotta be domain expertise. You know what I mean? Like how do you go evaluate?

22:09
you know, or build a PMM function or evaluate leveraging AI and the PMM function if you’ve never sat in the PMM function, if you’ve never, you know, so. Humans learn by doing an experience. You know, what’s that New Yorker cartoon? There’s the guy under the kitchen sink and his wife goes, do you know that or do you Google know it? do you really fix it? And I think it’s gonna be the same like, do you know this or do you AI know this? Or do you Claude know it? Yeah, do you Claude know it?

22:35
You know, like there is something, if you want to learn something, you have to actually do it. And like Patrice said, the best CMOs have spent time in each one of those functions. So they don’t expect a website to be up in a week. Well, why should it take longer than a week? You know, like how hard could it be? Like they understand the complexity in each one. I love that. And I think that’s really helpful context.

22:56
for people because marketing is an experiential job. It’s not something you can show up on day one and be an expert at because it is going through all of the reps of, okay, we did it here and that worked or that didn’t work. And we did it here and that worked and didn’t work. And now I have exposure to digital and now I have exposure to social and now I have exposure to, you you name it and you pull all those pieces together. So it does take a little while to become a good practitioner of marketing, but

23:25
what we’re talking about and how you can use AI can definitely expedite the process because it pulls upon experience. It pulls upon what’s already out there as long as you don’t take it for granted that that’s all good stuff, for example. But I love it. I mean, that was a really fantastic example. I love if you guys could give one more of like the knitting together of a marketing strategy and an AI tool that has been

23:54
beneficial for businesses? I think really campaign planning is interesting because you go from the strategy. to build the strategy, AI can help because they want to do research on these things. you’ve got to come up with like I do research on buyers. I do research on buyer teams. We build synthetic personas. Like you can do all that testing of messaging. But I think it can really fit in in different places within the whole how do you go from ideation to measurement?

24:23
And I think there’s different tools or, you know, it’d be interesting. Will there be tools or will everyone just be building stuff in cloud? And I can argue both sides, build versus buy, you know, like I’ve come from an IT backer. But I think there’s like, we’ve done it around ICP work. We’ve done it around buyer research. We’ve done it around helping us build out messaging. And so I think where it can help you is just being more relevant, like just what we did with the BDRs, but now you can do it more at scale with the marketing team also.

24:52
Can AI help you figure out what buyer should I follow up with now? In fact, we’re working on a project right now with a client. Like I have all these tools, but like, how do I surface the ones and can I interpret like AI is great for interpreting signals and data. These are the ones ready for a conversation. These are the ones ready for a nurture. These are the ones that maybe should do some outreach to. Like I think plugging it in, but I think where everyone is right now is everyone’s an individual usage.

25:21
I use it, everyone uses it, but you’re not seeing any impact. And until you pick a workflow and map it out how you do it now, where could AI either help me understand or act on it or interpret it, you’re not going to see that lift. And I think that’s how people experience your brand now is your process and data. Like I think that’s going to be what gets that. Like everyone, I haven’t heard anyone say I’ve put AI in and I’ve doubled revenue. No one has. Like no one. I have not seen one story.

25:49
about where they’ve talked about. my pipeline increased 20%, 30%. That’s not true. I’ve seen it on LinkedIn. Tight clogged. LinkedIn. Yes, I built a billion dollar company. Tight blueprint and I’ll you blueprint. company doesn’t actually really even exist somehow, right? Or it’s like a 10 person company. know, like it’s not like a, you we deal with.

26:18
complex organizations that are, you know, have, have, you multifaceted many different teams, different business units, different geos, things like that. So we’re always like, it doesn’t work for that. But I think to answer your question, maybe I think what we’re seeing now is we’re being asked to help people move from like random AI experimentation to AI enabled marketing systems. And that’s what requires those inputs. Like what’s the strategy? What’s your buyer understanding? Where do we have people in the loop? I think that’s, that’s the only place you’re to get that lift.

26:49
Well, and I think it’s so interesting, know, Patrice, when you said a year ago, we saw CEO mandates going out and telling people to use these tools and how dangerous that actually can be. Kathy, I think it’s really interesting what you said about, and I’m not using the same words as you, and I don’t have the tech background, but like systematizing things, right? And so as you were talking, I was like, yeah, we are all, we’re all using it one off to try to make a thing, right? Instead of thinking about where do I,

27:18
plug it into my process and back to the conversation about what happens to marketers in the future. It’s educating just as much on that side of things, right? So, you when I go back to that young professional that I was referencing, I was talking about all these ways you build brand, right? You have to know who your target is. You have to know who you’re competing with. You have to know the larger category. You have to develop your brand and, you know, you have to make sure that you understand the business you’re in and what you need to use all of these things for in order to do that.

27:47
And I think that there needs to be that education from us. And then also the, and then which pieces can we and should we be using the tools for? And then of course, how we interpret that, right? And how do we do it in real life? We actually literally have a service that we, when we do campaign planning with our clients, that is called the IRL portion, because then it’s like, you from like, like you’re describing from the brand perspective, it’s like, you have to come up with all the process.

28:17
where can you leverage AI? Sometimes you have to build the solutions. for us, it’s, you know, helping build synthetic personas or simulated buying groups that you can, you know, test content and message against. And then you’ve got to teach the team in real life, because guess what? They get back to their desk and, you know, Monday morning comes and they’ve been like, Hey, you need to go plan this next campaign. They’re like, okay, wait, I have a new way doing this. They’re all remote now. Yep. She adds another dimension on it. Like you can’t just…

28:46
tap the person and say, what are we supposed to do now? What do we learn in that training? No, no. And you’re not going to meet your manager until Thursday at two. And it’s Monday morning. Well, and I think I might just to pull on that thread a little bit more too, because people can go and they can operate the tools, they can run the process. But what we titled this podcast episode is how to own your POV. So how do you do it right in order to be able to get that

29:16
I call it the stickiness or that differentiation and that way of being able to position yourself that you are unique by still using AI because we said already a couple different times how AI can tend to dilute what is coming back. And if somebody doesn’t know any better, you know, they think that that’s okay. So I would love you guys to maybe kind of dig in a little bit more to your process about like,

29:41
Okay, if we’re matching the strategy with the tools, then how do we know that we’re getting good stuff? And how do we then position that so that we can start owning that POV so that POV, that positioning starts getting attributed to us? That’s a good question. Where I have focused, I think when you’re coming up with content is we have a lot of prompts and we have a lot of inputs we gather from people.

30:08
And it’s amazing how thin some of those inputs are. Like I’ll ask for a messaging framework. Sometimes you get one slide. like nothing else. Like there’s only so much you can work with. And so I think.

30:23
Depending when someone grew up in marketing depends the depth they have on audience or audience insights and messaging and really what you need. They like to think AI is good for derivative stuff. I think it’s good for summary, but you have to have someone with that domain knowledge to really come up. AI is not going to help you with your point of view. What it will help you with is the research. Go out and research all my competitors, pull their message from their website. What are they doing? Like I remember that project a long time ago.

30:52
Went into the client and they were system integrators and I put up six basically value props and I said, pick yours. And they were like, Oh, I mean, they couldn’t. They all sounded like, Oh, we’re a global system integrator and our people and process make. So, I mean, a lot of times it’s like, do you have. And I don’t know if a lot of times people really have a strong one. Oh, we have better data processing. Well, what does better mean to someone like just basic framework? Who’s your audience? What do they care about?

31:22
know, name three benefits they get, how you differentiate a unique from someone else. Like fill out a basic template on a value prop. I feel like it’s almost like there’s some things that AI can help with and some things, right, that just need to be uniquely inherent to the brand. like I think about when I think about brand and point of view, I think about storytelling and I think about, right. And I think that the, where AI can help is certainly in competitive intelligence.

31:51
in voice of custom, like gathering the data that gives you the input you need to develop your unique point of view. And then Cathy, think alluded to it earlier in the call, but then all the technology that you have, like rev ops has never been more important in a business than right now, because all of the technology and the infrastructure and how AI is being leveraged on that side is what’s going to make sure that your audience is receiving your point of view in the way you intended or envisioned it to be received.

32:19
And so I feel like the actual like creation of your POV has to be uniquely a brand and you can’t rely on AI for you have to like, it’s got to come from, within here. Right. um But I think I’m pointing to inside my soul and heart, right. But, you know, no AI is going to tell me who invert is. They’re just not right. Like we’ve, we’ve got to communicate that, but I do think that tech and AI can help with the underlying infrastructure.

32:47
ah that helps us amplify it, that helps us orchestrate in market the way we want people to experience our point of view. Yeah, I mean, as a lover of brand, this is making my heart happy and my school happy because, mean, you know, this is one of the discussions and we have a lot of folks on the agency side that we work with in coaching and organizational development, right? And this is one of the questions that comes up often is, well, all around AI, but also

33:17
how much is this work still relevant? And Anne and I just launched a book in March on personal brand, right? So obviously we’re very big proponents of individual leaders, teams, all of that need to understand that work. But I think it is tricky because I feel like there are so many companies out there that have either never built brand or sacrificed it at the expense of having the tools and building quote unquote, un-efficiency for themselves.

33:45
and have lost their unique point of view. And I think once that happens, that is a really dangerous place to be because like you said, Cathy, we only have so much attention span anymore, right? And we’re hit with messages all over the place. And so once that point of view is gone, I’m not sure what you do own in the space and then you’re just chasing whatever that next thing is. You are, it’s interesting, Patrice, you brought up storyteller.

34:12
The Wall Street Journal had an article, I’m going to say a couple of months ago on how companies are hiring not writers now, storytellers. And the point is, a friend of mine, she sent it over, so I just pulled it up. The problem is not that everyone can write now. The problem is that people misunderstand what writing is. Writing is thinking and the real value is deciding what is worth saying, what is original, what is surprising, and what has not been said clearly before. You know, and that’s what they’re bringing in. I thought it was really good what she had to say about it. Like, oh, I can write now. I have AI.

34:42
Not really. Yeah, I can’t agree more with that. And I’m going to get on my my tide box for a second, which is my branded soap box, which I think is apropos for this conversation because I worked at P &G. I worked in fabric here for 10 years. But what I tend to see happen and I think we’ve really hit the nail on the head here is this huge AI circular conversation. like, where do you start? So I need a ICP, right?

35:12
Okay, well, I messaging or some sort of hypothesis in order to define the ICP, but I need the ICP in order to kind of figure out what the messaging is. Right, and so you get into this like this circular like do loop and it’s really hard to kind of figure out, okay, where do I, where’s the point that I’m going to actually like put the stake in the ground or uh position around? And that’s why it’s, you.

35:38
actually have to have a level of marketing expertise. And this is what you guys said. You have to have somebody who understands how to develop the starting point in order to go have AI actually work as hard as it possibly can for you. And this is why, you know, people start to kind of get in these do loops and don’t understand why what they’re putting out there isn’t working for them or why it gets diluted or where there’s no differentiation, where there’s no value proposition that’s actually working. it’s because

36:09
that actually, as you said, and I totally agree, the value proposition, the way that we are going to position ourselves, the branding behind who we are is the input for what AI needs in order to drive the consistency in the content, the messaging, the writing, um targeting, however you’re gonna be using AI for. That’s what they need in order to train it, as April was saying in the intro.

36:36
in order to be able to be consistent instead consistency that starts driving that attribution. So that’s Anne on her soapbox. I invite you guys to pull me off on my soapbox or comment or build or what have you guys seen? We actually are doing a lot of ICP work right now. So ICP is big. I think in a world where um do more with less has never been more prevalent. It is forcing organizations to revisit ICP.

37:06
And I think there’s sort of two things when I hear you and your dyed box is, you know, from a message perspective, there is like, who did we create this product for or develop this service for, right? Like, who did we do this for? And there’s a message that we had there in order to get to this. But then as a company grows, more products get developed and more services get developed. uh At least we feel right now there’s a big benefit in doing ICP first and foremost.

37:35
to understand who has been buying from you, who’s a good customer, who’s a bad customer, who are you retaining? We work in SaaS a lot, right? Who’s not a trading, who’s retaining, right? Who closes, has, Cathy brings us up with days to close, what deals close quickly, what deals close right longer? Cause of course we all love to have, right, our pipeline filled with only ICP clients, but it’s like kind of a little bit of a unicorn. And so for us, it’s ICP first.

38:02
and then find segments and then there’s different segments and then build messaging specifically for those segments. Now I say all that knowing that oftentimes our clients have multiple products, multiple, right? So there’s, it’s not as easy as I’ve got one ICP, right? uh But it’s definitely a little chicken and egg for sure, which is I think, Anne, what I hear you kind of saying between the two. You know, my whole thing is 65 % the success of your campaign is the audience. Like period. You have a great message if it.

38:31
the person doesn’t care about it, it doesn’t matter. Like a big part is do you have the right audience, then you have the right message or offer. And the creative is the least important part. Like it has to be good, but good creative will not help if you have a bad message, you have the wrong audience. Again, we work in demand. So, yeah, you focus on the right target accounts, or you know, versus April’s over there like, wait a minute, creative’s in…

38:56
like, absolutely. I saw it my face. It is important. mean, it is important, but the best creative is not like if the product’s just not for me, I can enjoy it. Well, yes. I mean, you’re exactly right. you know, in my head, was going to my son’s a baseball player and we’re doing club baseball, right? And so all of the teams go to this one Facebook page to put their tryouts.

39:25
you can’t tell the difference between them at all. And in fact, in some of them, you can’t even find the information that you’re looking for. Right. And you can tell that they all just went in and it’s the exact same thing on repeat to the point where a designer friend of mine who also has a son playing went in and was like, hey, could we get some like actual creative work on here? Right. So I take it. No, no. I I agree. Creative is important. Like that is what’s going to have it land with someone.

39:55
But you have to know who you’re the creative for. That’s all I’m saying. Well, and we, you know, we talk all the time too about testing and learning and we talk to people about how your targets change, right? So Patrice, you said as companies mature, right? You open up new segments sometimes or you intentionally try to go after a different psychographic demographic target than you ever have before because you think you have something new to offer them. And so

40:21
That’s where I think all of these tools can be really helpful is it makes that testing and learning process a lot more fluid, a lot easier, a lot more accessible to people, right? Like, you you talk in terms of when you had one shot with a Super Bowl ad way back when. Now it’s like, you can put stuff out there and see how it goes. And yes, you want to be strategic and thoughtful about what you’re doing, but it does allow you to figure out, you know, is there something we’re missing or do we have an offering that we’re sitting on that we didn’t realize? And

40:51
Yes, we have our bread and butter clients, but we should also be looking for people to bring in in the future to expand where it makes sense and all of those things. Well, and I think the underlying point here too, if I was going to kind of pull that out is that AI can’t overcome bad strategy. No. Right. And so that’s the thing too, I think we tend to ignore and that’s why I go back to the statement you made at the very, very beginning about where you guys like sit that intersection of strategy and execution.

41:20
because and you could crack me if I’m wrong, but from my experience with tech, a lot of times it’s like, we’ll make the product first and then figure out who it’s for later. And so a lot of it is trying to force fit the tech into a point of like interest in trying to kind of really dial that in. So when people kind of take it from that point of view, how do you guys like

41:49
course correct them back to the process that’s going to help them really be successful. Well, I feel like, you know, a lot with with startups, especially in tech, they create a, you know, a technology for a problem. So they problem market fit, right. And then and then they’ve got a mature into into having as they go up audience fit, product market fit, whatever. But I feel like it’s funny when you bring that like, I feel like our job a lot of times is to have

42:17
the brands that we work with stop talking about their product and stop leading with them and all the millions of great features that they have. And to really pivot towards the audience that they’re going after, the pain points that they’re experiencing, the business issues or the business imperatives that are happening inside their world and focus on a message that really is pinpointed at that ah versus, know, cause you could have

42:46
I mean, geez, today with tech, it’s rolling releases of features. I think we have one client, it’s like 30 new features this month. I mean, if you went and bombarded your audience with a message of here’s all the 30 features we had, you have people out there that care about two of them. And so I think we spend a lot of time trying to get our clients to not really lead with themselves and their product and adjust it and learn.

43:13
first and foremost about their audience and what their audience cares about and adjust their message to that in order to get better engagement. Well, no, I think it’s a really good point because I mean, Amy and April say this all the time too from a branding standpoint is that you can put a price tag on a thing, but what you’re really selling is the emotional engagement of that thing. And when you can tap into that, that’s where the value is actually created. That’s where the differentiation is actually created. And if you can harness that and train your AI model, whichever one you’re using to consistently

43:43
deliver content that’s around that. And you do that by using those as prompts, guys. You really are fine tuned and intentional about what your prompts are. Then you start to of create something that is pretty magical that can then can be attributed back to you that feels like you, that really enhances your brand and your brand identity. And I think a lot of tech companies overlook that. And I know we’re kind of like picking on tech for a second, but why not?

44:09
But a lot of tech companies overlook that because they’re so ingrained in the thing, the thing, the thing, the thing, the tech, the tech, the tech, the tech. Let’s just like get it to the point so we can, you know, get our IPO or we can sell it. And what me and April have found is that if you actually focus even just a little bit on brand, it significantly increases your valuation. Um, and, and because you build already that want, that desire, that demand,

44:38
that isn’t that’s that’s pooling versus just a thousand percent pushing all the time by giving your BDRs or your your sales folks or your fractional sales script of folks a script and say, go sell this thing. It doesn’t work in this day and age anymore. It’s I feel like it’s a little bit futile in your efforts, your efficiency, your productivity, your percent of clothes. I that’s just been what I’ve observed. I don’t know if that’s what you guys have seen to. Yeah.

45:07
But I think it comes about, I guess, maybe more tech companies. You have product marketing people who are responsible for a product and they get usually paid based on profitability of that product. And so there’s this all around features. Like you said, this is what it does. And they’re trying to flood the market with that. And they also build personas around what I call day in the life of, because that’s how I have to build my product. You’re a PNG. What does this person do? When would they use TIE? You know, like it is, you want to know the day in the life of.

45:35
Patrice and I are in demand. I don’t want the day in the life of, I want the day in life when they’re like, I don’t want to deal with the day in life. Like I want to invest time, money, political capital, because I don’t want to deal with this anymore. And so we have this inherent, you know, friction between what a product marketer has to do and what a demand person has to do. And the demand is more on that brand side. Like stop talking about the product, talk about the problem they’re having, you know, why are they willing to not do this anymore? Why are they willing to risk? Like I said,

46:05
put time into it, time, money, political capital, have this happen. And what does success look like to them? It may not be what the product marketer thinks. You know, I just want to, if I can get this in, it’s successful. I’m going to look good and I can get a promotion. Yeah, it increases network speed, 20%, whatever. You know, that’s not their goal. And so I think we look at different things. Like you said, marketing is probably, marketing has the largest discretionary budget in the company and they have the most diverse work group. Like coding? Yeah, there’s some.

46:34
DevOps encoders, but in general, they’re all in the same person. This SEO can’t do an event. An event person can’t write messaging. A messaging person, you know, can’t do demand. They can’t run marketo really. And so it’s really hard. We’re all in our little silos and seeing a different view of what’s needed. Yeah. Well, and you know, the thing that comes to mind to me is I was just having this conversation yesterday with the client that one of their biggest problems is that.

47:01
They have all these practitioners, like you just said, but none of them understand what’s going on in the business at the highest level. And so therefore they’re not understanding, you know, and her comment to me was like, I just don’t feel like people care. And I feel like they just phone it in and they come and do their job. Right. And my point back was nobody has taught them where they sit within the business and what they’re how, what they’re doing is important to the company. And.

47:28
You know, I don’t know why it happens, but we’ve seen it a lot over the years where people almost like quote unquote shelter those people when our point of view is you have to educate them on the business, the why that we are here. And then, yeah, of course the how, but like they have to understand where they are part of that bigger machine and initiative and why it is important.

47:50
I was going to say, can I get on my tide box now on that? Absolutely. share it with everybody but April who makes fun of me about it. So she doesn’t get a tide box. I did. I pulled it one time in an episode and man, I didn’t even get it out of my mouth. And she was like, Oh no, no, you don’t get to borrow the tide box. But I mean, that’s on the CMO. So we do a lot of work around this. You put together an annual marketing plan, but it’s usually.

48:15
You know, it’s a hundred slides. get down, you’re like, Oh, thank God that’s done. And everyone goes back to what they were doing. Like your job is, and we’re big on the first method, you know, a plan on a page. Like usually have four or five things. One is usually around brand. One’s usually around creating net new ones about growth and usually ones around employee, like retention or something. And so there’s a whole process we go through, like what’s the initiative, what are the, what are the goals look like? What are the key actions you have to take? And then that goes into another document. And so.

48:45
You can’t expect someone who’s running Marketo to understand how they fit in that unless you are personally doing that work. And we also set them up like so we have the largest discretionary budget and because marketing is so siloed, the only way if I do webinars, I have to show you how good webinars are. Otherwise you might cut webinars. So I am motivated to forget about everything else. Oh, I had 20 people register and I had 15 show like.

49:11
They have to do that because there’s no other way they can show their value or they’re going to get cut or their budget’s to get cut. So we set them up to do it. And then we like, well, I don’t know why they don’t. Well, how else are they going to show their value unless you draw that path for them? OK, now get off my box. No, totally not. love that soapbox because we’re on that soapbox together, tied box together. But I think the other thing that we see that challenge, the one is.

49:35
We always talk about sales and marketing alignment. The two departments need to be aligned. And then there’s always the funny adage, everyone’s like, here we are, 20 years later, still talking about sales and marketing alignment. And we’re still working on it. And I actually feel like the probably larger, yes, because I feel like that’s always going to be an issue and we just need to accept that. Whereas I feel like uh the work to do cross-functional alignment inside marketing teams is probably some of the most impactful work that can happen.

50:04
for a business to be more effective as a marketing department. However, it is oftentimes deprioritized because it is not considered revenue generating. It’s hard work. It’s lots of change management. It’s getting teams to really understand the business, how they work together to actually accomplish the goals of what we want our audience to receive. And I think it’s one of the things that like is the most frustrating because, ah you know, because of the position marketing’s in proving their worth.

50:34
you know, proving, proving, proving ROI attribution. We’re still dealing with it. That we see that kind of work at deprioritized. And I feel like Kathy’s on a mission to not have it get to you. I’ve had to hurry up. I’m getting an end to life here soon. well, we continue to carry that torch, Kathy, because I mean, we say that all the time. It’s like, what is the sales team selling if the marketing team doesn’t develop anything like.

51:02
What do they have to sell? mean, it’s they’d work. They should be working so like synonymously and harmoniously. And it just baffles my brain every time that somebody is like, it tells me and even at P &G, it was sometimes a big disconnect because the sales team would sell based on what they think the buyer wants, not necessarily what we’re trying to promote from an overarching consumer standpoint. So they’re selling to the buyer. We’re trying to sell to the consumer.

51:32
And they really are the same. The customer is just in between. I don’t know. A different conversation for a different day. I um won’t get on my tide box about strategic action planning either because we don’t have that kind of time. know that strategic action planning is so critically important for every single business. And that’s what I’ll say about that. um So Reagan-Linus back in. One more question before we.

51:59
go into maybe some rapid fires is after hearing this conversation, can you give some practical tips for our listeners on what they can do today to start practicing what I’m still going to call AI marketing um and really start to be more intentional about them put into practice? Oh, good question. Since we’re trying to get, since we’re on a mission to get companies out of individual contributor usage. So don’t start with the tool. Don’t say I’ve got clogged.

52:29
Start with a pick one workflow, whatever it is, the BDR, campaign planning, lead, qualification, something, and work through the whole process. And then what you’re doing now and try to add AI in, I would say spend more time building better inputs. Like when we do content with someone, was like, oh, this is so hard. Yeah, because we’re going to make your content better, but we need all those inputs. And then I think figure out where do you really need someone still in the loop and where can AI take over?

52:59
Because I think it’s not better prompting, it’s getting people into better system thinkers. know, like, how to say. I would say don’t start with a content use case. It’s too easy and it’s too easy to mess up. And oftentimes like to do it well, it actually there’s usually quite a bit of backend work. And you started hitting on it before, like, you know, if you’re training AI, like

53:23
You’ve got your product, like you’ve got information in places that it can gather to have control over that content. So I would say don’t start with content. And I think there’s some other areas operationally that can be a little bit more impactful and less risky to owning your point of view and your brand in the market. Love that. OK, before we let you guys close this out, do you want to do some rapid fires? Sure.

53:51
Depends what they are. I don’t know. We don’t usually try to get people unless I’m feeling saucy, but I’m not feeling particularly saucy today, you should be OK. so what is it probably to we have a just have a book out and it’s called The Power of Your Personal Bank, a playbook for struggling middle managers who want to do big things and not that you guys are struggling middle managers, but as we have the context of big things, I am interested in finding out what is your guys’s

54:18
big thing that you are trying to achieve either individually or for your business by the end of the year? By the end of the year, well, doing a lot of AI use case workflow work with our clients. is something the earlier, like anything else in marketing, the earlier you start working with your clients, the more real world experience, right? We all have and kind of figuring out like where are the challenges? Where is our clients struggling?

54:44
Where is the data not in shape? Where is what not? So I think just continuing, we’ve been fortunate enough to be kind of early in helping our clients in that area. So I think the more work we can do um to get our clients to just like stop doing like basic nurtures and stuff like that, and to start really pushing the envelope is a big goal. Love it. I have to do what Patrice says. She’s the CEO. So that’s we’re doing. up.

55:10
No, me and April just said we have a love of the plating film. We call ourselves co-founders. So I kind of like the idea though of, you know, how you know, looting it over her. Absolutely. It wouldn’t work very well. That’s why we haven’t done it. uh Where is your guys’ individually happy place? On the water. Any specific place on the water? Anywhere where there’s a sailboat. Love that.

55:40
I’d actually say on the water too. Any water. Any water. Love Yeah. Who is one person that it could be alive or dead that you would like to spend an hour with? Kathy Mackey. Yeah. I’m not kidding. She’s really one of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. So I got to learn from her all the time. Very funny. That is a good question.

56:08
I’m thinking like either an interesting movie director or writer like for the New Yorker. And I don’t have one off the tip of my tongue, but that is that’s a good question. And you need to come up with someone better portrayed. I would go with a business like a business mind, like somebody that just has a crazy business mind that I would want to tap into. But I need to think about that, too. Awesome. Well, that’s good. So now you guys have your ICP and you can go in to develop that further, right? Yeah. uh

56:38
Oh, that was awesome. I want to ask you, so who would you spend time with? That’s a good question. If I could spend an hour with somebody, it would probably be with Sadhguru because I’m in a very spiritual place right now. And so I’ve always wanted to do something, one of his events and be in his presence. Very cool. Well, and for me, I am.

57:02
I would say Mel Robbins, which is going to surprise Anne because sometimes I’m all for and sometimes I’m like, well, that’s a little too much rah rah. But I have been in a place where I’ve just needed like a little bit of like reframing, re-grounding, you know, and a lot of her content is really good for that. And I read Let Them and loved that book so much, loved the authenticity that came out from her.

57:30
And I just think she’s been through a whole lot of life. And that book, especially, she shared a lot of that, which I just, I don’t know, I just find it really, find her to be very helpful to me lately. Very good. Love it. I like that you turned the question on us though. Well, I was curious. You got me thinking and now I’m thinking, I can’t think of any director or writer, that’s what art artists, that’s what I’m gonna spend time It’s gonna come up at some point. You’re gonna be sitting there watching somebody, you’re like,

57:58
Yeah, that person. That person. That one. I will email you and let you know. That’s awesome. All right, Kathy and Patrice, take us home. Anything you want to close out with? Anything we didn’t cover? um Put a bow around it and tell people where they can find you. Well, they can find us on our website at inverta.com. So www.inverta.com. I think, you know, one of the things that I’ve learned about

58:25
Kathy and I and our team over the years is that we just really like to solve the big problems. We like to solve the big hairy complex problems. And in talking about marketing, we go through our own internal evolution of how we talk about ourselves. And I think after we’re 10 years in business, and I think after 10 years we’ve realized it’s not about we’re ABM experts or we’re AI experts or we’re this or that. It’s like we are…

58:52
absolutely curious and thirsty and hungry to solve the problems that marketers are facing in order for marketing to be valued and understood inside the business and have impact on the business. And that takes on a lot of different shapes and sizes, but like that’s the work we’re passionate about. So I love it. I would agree. I mean, I’ve talked to Patrice for the last five years, I’m retiring this year and then something more interesting comes up. So.

59:16
I am so excited for AI because it keeps her really interested in the work. So she’s sticking with me for a little bit. It has been. mean, think of this in your career, how often, you know, the internet and then this, like this is major. And even just some of the projects I get involved with now, like we’re doing this big ICP one when it’s a whole new way of doing it. It’s just been interesting. And it’s really been nice having AI as a thought partner, like push back on this idea. What am I and getting ready for meetings and just thinking through it.

59:45
That part has been really engaging at a level I didn’t think possible at this point in marketing. So I, oh, do I have to do another campaign? And it’s like, this has made it more fun and interesting again, even at my age. I love it. I love it. love it. Well, thank you guys both for being on and sharing your wisdom with us.

01:00:07
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