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Classics: 4 Roles Your Business Coach Should Play: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Aug 13, 2024

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

In this Classics episode, we’re talking the 4 roles your business coach should play. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Marketing Smarts: Classics: 4 Roles Your Business Coach Should Play

A career coach can be one of your most valuable assets. They’re an unbiased resource who has nothing at stake except your personal growth and success, and they can help you see blind spots and give you tools and practices people closer to you may not. In this episode, we examine the “4 Key Roles Your Business Coach Should Play.” We also provide lots of personal anecdotes for how we chose our coaches, and how we get the most out of the relationships. Did you know we offer coaching as part of Forthright People? Whether it be for building your Marketing Smarts, general business guidance, branding and marketing development, Personal Brand cultivation, team dynamics optimization, or just about anywhere else you have a challenge, you can expect forthright support stemming from our 35+ years of experience. This episode covers everything from your business coach to your personal brand. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How does a business coach compare to a mentor?
  • What are the 4 roles your business coach should play?
  • How do you find a business coach?
  • Can your manager be your business coach?
  • How do you know your business coach is right for you?
  • What are the ways to get the most out of your coaching?
  • How do you break up with your business coach?
  • Does networking play a role in finding your business coach?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

  • Classics: 4 Roles Your Business Coach Should Play
    • [0:00] Welcome to Marketing Smarts
    • [0:22] Anne Candido, April Martini
    • [1:14] How does a business coach compare to a mentor?
    • [2:02] What are the 4 roles your business coach should play?
    • [2:12] Your business coach should be your therapist
    • [6:57] Your business coach should be your network extender
    • [7:04] “4 Unspoken Rules of Networking“
    • [11:40] Your business coach should be your unbiased resource
    • [17:19] Your business coach should be your accountability check
    • [20:43] We’d like to invite you to join ForthRight Women: The Cohort. This community is for females who are ambitious in their careers, but want an equally fulfilling personal life. For more information and to join the group, check out ForthRight-Women.com
    • In-the-Trenches
    • [22:04] How do you find a business coach?
    • [22:34] P&G (Procter & Gamble)
    • [28:00] How do you know your business coach is right for you?
    • [34:12] Can your manager be your business coach?
    • [39:18] How do you break up with your business coach?
    • [44:22] How do you get the most out of your business coaching?
    • Marketing Smarts Moments

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
This is Marketing Smarts, a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader, no matter your level. And each episode will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. Now let’s get to it. Welcome to Marketing Smarts. I am Ann Candido. And I am April Martini. And today’s another Marketing Smarts Classics, four rules your business coach should play.

00:29
We’re big believe it isn’t in hiring a coach for many reasons, including having someone in your corner to keep you on track to achieving your goals, providing insight into how to get from where you are to where you want to go and completely unbiased as a third party that lives outside of your work environment and company. You may have heard us say it before, I will say it again, hiring and paying someone for this role shows that you are serious about pushing forward and is a different level of accountability when you’re paying this person, whether it’s you personally or your company putting the bill.

00:57
We all need a good coach in our lives and we are not just saying this because we are coaches. Have a listen to this episode for the first time or as a reminder of its importance. Let’s get to it. First, before we get started, I think it’s really important that we talk about the definition of a coach and mentor because we use them interchangeably, but there’s actually a really a bit of a nuanced difference. A coach is actually somebody that’s a more formal relationship.

01:23
All right, so it’s somebody that you’re actually probably hiring, you’re paying money to, and they’re offering you a service in order to provide this guidance. A mentor is usually a less formal relationship. It may be somebody that you know from a different life. It might be somebody outside of your current function. It’s somebody that you might meet more casually in order to get any kind of feedback or advice, but it’s probably not somebody that you’re paying. So these can overlap some, but it’s…

01:52
really important to kind of understand a distinction because the expectations that you have of a coach and a mentor are a little bit different. And so we’re going to talk about that as we go through this. All right. So with that distinction, we’ll move on to the four roles your business coach should play. And the first one here, which I will take, is your coach as your therapist. So they’re really there to lend an ear and really listen and hear what you’re saying.

02:20
And to Anne’s previous point about difference of coach and mentor, because it’s a more formal relationship, they’re on the hook so that things don’t get out per se. So they’re not talking to other people about what you talk about in your sessions, therefore the therapist role. You can be vulnerable with them because you’re not worried about things getting out there. And honestly, the higher you go in your career, the harder and riskier it can feel to be vulnerable.

02:47
because of the power and the presence and the circumstances of all that you’re responsible for in your role. So the way we look at it is they’re empathetic, they’re hearing the real truth, and then they’re helping you kind of step through how to resolve issues or give you feedback on the role you’re playing, just that overall, lend an ear, hear what you’re saying, and then coach against that.

03:14
And the other important part here is they don’t have a personal agenda. So because they’re not really linked to you other than for you as your coach, they don’t have any skin in the game. And therefore they can play this authentic role because they have your best interest at heart, no matter what. And really important here, even if you don’t like what they’re going to tell you. So. Anecdotally, I’ll offer kind of an example here, and I’m sure Ann has tons, which is why we chose to.

03:43
Focus on this topic today, but I remember a coach I had really early on, I was getting a lot of feedback about the fact that I was a hard charger. And sometimes the feedback was really positive. And sometimes it was stuff like, you’re too intense or you’re intimidating the team or your energy is causing people to freeze up, you need to relax a little bit. And so I didn’t know what to do because I was getting feedback on both sides. And so I took it to my coach

04:12
you know, use them as the therapist, vented my frustration. I was young, so I didn’t maybe understand how to really use my soft skills to my advantage, but then manage them when I needed to. And so the feedback that she gave me was, look, it’s not bad to say that you’re a hard charger. You are, you know, it sounds like everyone in your organization is aligned on that, but if you’re really listening to the feedback, the idea is to channel it and use it when it’s stuff like.

04:40
meeting deliverables and producing strong work and keeping people on track and making sure that the strategy is heard and all of those things, but to tone it down a little bit and learn to work more collaboratively with the team. And as I’ve looked back on that, I mean, some of the other feedback that I’ve been given before is around not being patient to bring other people along. And I always go back in my head to that initial situation where I had to really listen to what she was telling me.

05:09
and then action against it, and then come back and reset against that at different points throughout my career. Yeah, and I think to point out something that you did really well there is that you just didn’t go in and whine. So, I mean, I have a personal therapist too, to be totally bluntly honest. I actually think everybody needs one, but this time is used for constructive discussion, right? So it’s fine to state your frustrations. It’s fine to be like, hey, I had a really bad day today.

05:37
But the root of all that is to try to figure out why you had a bad day today. Why are you frustrated? So that you can really dig deep and really understand what is it that’s going on that’s conflicted with your desire and your ability to want to achieve something greater than what you’re achieving at the moment in time. Absolutely. So the therapist piece, and I just want everybody to hear this, it’s not necessarily to like placate you and be like, oh, that’s okay, that’s okay. Yeah, that’s just the way the world is. And the…

06:06
be a little bit of that just to kind of soften the blow, but you should expect the blow. You should expect, well, you know, this is what, you know, what’s your role in it? What, you know, what are the ways that you can be more active and a little bit more constructive, just like you’re in your example. So just expect that and don’t expect this just to be all like soft therapy. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, that’s, that’s exactly it. I mean, I think.

06:29
I was seeking resolution for sure, but I also was in a position where I couldn’t find my way. And to your point, if I had just gone in there just to complain to her, we never would have gotten anywhere with a resolution. So yeah, I think it is, you know, using them as a therapist and letting them help you through your emotions, but then to get back on track quickly and action against a plan. All right, so the next one we have here, number two.

06:58
your coach as your network extender. So quick plug here, we have a networking episode. So episode 12, the four unspoken rules of networking speaks to the importance of networking in general and how to tap into the networks of others at a higher level. But we feel like it’s important for your coach to act as your network extender, but again, play a pretty unique role here.

07:24
So because they really get to know you at the very core of who you are, they can help you with people that you could potentially be connected with to help kind of fast track your career or trailblaze a path with their advice. So if they tell you, you know, hey, you’re way too into the day-to-day of your job, you need broader perspective, then the follow-up could be that they refer you to someone that they feel like.

07:50
could help you with that in addition to the service that they provide you. And they can quite frankly help grow your career. So job opportunities, clients, customers, you know, of course there could be potential conflict if they’re hired by the company you’re working for. They may not necessarily wanna play this role. But generally speaking, because they’re there with your best interest at heart and no real agenda, as we said in the previous one, you should look to them.

08:17
as another avenue to extend your network. And again, I’ll talk about another example here, different coach that I had in my career. I ended up in a position where I was met with a lot of responsibility, but not a ton of support. And as part of that,

08:36
I was having to travel pretty significantly and often on my own. And this was, again, in the first couple years of my career where it’s like you’re drinking from a fire hose, right? And we always talk about I’m the agency side and that is, it is kind of a trial by fire nature to the industry. And so I was working really hard. I was working a lot of hours. I was trying my best, but I kind of needed a lifeline. And so…

09:01
this would be more on the mentor side, so a little bit more informal, but I think it’s important to talk about it here because the person that I was referred to helped me by using his network to extend. It was a moment in time, less of a formal, long-standing relationship, but he identified in me the need for some help. When I was traveling to New York all the time, he partnered me with two guys in one of our New York acquisitions.

09:29
who were tremendously beneficial to me and really helped me navigate the politics of the situation that the company was in with different acquisitions, helped me just navigate New York City as a young person who hadn’t spent a lot of time there, and became an extension of my network, I mean, to the point where I still keep in touch with those guys. But that was a moment where he was an informal coach. I wasn’t necessarily.

09:57
looking to him for advice all the time, but he recognized the opportunity and then helped me by using his network. Yeah, and I have a similar example during my corporate career for sure, but then also Scott, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, was really, really critical in extending my entrepreneurial network because I did have a corporate network, but once you get out of that corporate environment, it’s kind of outside of your little bubble and then you need to…

10:26
very rapidly extend and he was really beneficial and helping me understand more industry related networking opportunities, ways that I could extend my reach and my awareness. One particular example was becoming a speaker at Vistage. He had been a keynote there for a while and then he introduced me to that network and got me infiltrated into that network. And now I’m a speaker at Vistage. So…

10:53
Those are really, really helpful to have those connections that can open your eyes to things that, I didn’t even know Vistage existed until he told me about it. So use your coach to really understand what are the opportunities beyond your little bubble that could help you expand your reach, expand your awareness, get other opportunities to client partner or any of those important things that you’re focused on in the moment. So…

11:24
both inside and outside, it’s definitely very beneficial for a network extender. Yeah, and now I know Scott, which as I mentioned at the beginning, he’s now both of our coach, so coming full circle on the use of networking there. Yes, absolutely. All right, so number three, your coach as your unbiased resource, and Anne is passionate about this one, so I’m going to hand it over to her. Yeah, and I think this is a little bit of a combination of the first two.

11:52
to some extent because we mentioned how important it is to be able to be vulnerable in these conversations and you really need a resource that is not going to impact your career in order to be vulnerable. So that’s why it’s so important to pick somebody who has an unbiased point of view and really doesn’t have a stake in that moment. Now it seems a little weird to say that because they do have a stake, as you have said, April, in helping your personal growth.

12:21
but they really don’t have a stake of whether or not you get promoted or whether or not you get that role. It doesn’t impact them personally. It impacts their desire to help because when they can help you, it helps their business, right? But it’s a different kind of help. And so, and the reason why that’s so important is because they are going to be able to give you that third party kind of outside in view of what nobody else is gonna be able to give to you because…

12:50
they are too close to it. Like I said, your pursuit is with truth. And within that, you need to build that trust. So you should expect that your coach is gonna be equal parts cheerleader and equal parts butt kicker, like we said, right? And within that, you really need to take a listen for what they are telling you. Because…

13:13
Initially, it may feel like, hey, well, they just don’t get the situation I’m in. So you might be really quick to disregard it, because it’s like, well, they just don’t understand the nuances. They don’t understand the politics. They actually understand it probably a lot better than you think they do. And they’ve seen it in a lot more different places than you’re in. So listen for that unbiased feedback, because within it is insight and nuances. And

13:40
really great nuggets of knowledge that you can then pull in and be able to show up differently, be able to impact those challenges that you’re seeing, and then be able to put those into action and practice them. Yeah, and I actually just gave this advice to someone that I coach today, which is the idea of if you are working for a business, that is 40 plus hours of your week, you cannot…

14:09
possibly be unbiased in your view about what is going on, which is where the coach becomes so important. And that’s the role I was serving for her. And, you know, Anne makes the comment all the time that you can’t work in and on your business at the same time. And so that’s what we’re referencing here with the unbiased resource. And I think what she says is so spot on, which is if you don’t see a direct connection right away, you might

14:36
think they don’t really understand, they don’t know, I’m not sure this is the right coach, all of those types of things. But where I’ve seen it succeed and where I’ve had personal success in the past is when you can get to know each other well enough that you move past those more functional things and then you get advice that really permeates any type of situation. And because they are not biased in the situation of being your coach, they will naturally see it.

15:05
differently and most times more clearly than you ever could because you’re right in the middle of it. Yeah, and that’s what personal growth is all about, right? And it’s being able to see those things and how somebody tell you those things and then being able to apply them to the situation. Like you said, it transcends that specific situation but gives you that attribute that you need with regards to your personal brand to be able then to.

15:31
go to the next level or be able to deal with these situations that would continue to plague you or to have people see you differently, all these things that we’ve said. So yeah, don’t disregard what they’re saying because it doesn’t seem like they know that exact situation. They probably have seen things that you haven’t seen. And because you’re so close to it, your perspective and your lens may be a little skewed. Yeah. And I’ll just offer one final example here of…

15:59
You know, I was in a situation at an agency where I couldn’t get any clear feedback from anyone. And I was in the middle of a situation where we had a coach that was paid for, but like that feedback was kind of blending in with everybody else’s. And so I went out of my way to find a coach outside of the organization that had nothing to do with agency and nothing to do with the corporate side of our clients who actually work for a nonprofit that helps educate young kids.

16:29
And I purposely asked her in her initial response right away, because she wasn’t a professional coach by nature, but was, I don’t know that I can do that because I’m not in your industry. And I was like, yeah, but you coach every day as part of your job, right? You’re paid to coach. And so I tapped into her and it was amazing what would happen when we would get into situations and really talk and…

16:57
she got to know me really well, where she would give me a perspective completely different than anything I had ever heard. And that’s exactly what I needed at that point in time in order to be able to address the situation I was in where I just felt like it was murky and I didn’t know what to do next. All right. Number four. I’m also going to pass this one to Anne. Your coach as your accountability check.

17:22
Yes, so we all have these in our lives, right? The accountability checkers, like if you have a personal trainer or somebody else that’s like managing to some level what you’re doing, even to accept maybe your significant others, you’re accountable for things. But it’s effective, right? Because if you know that somebody’s expecting something from you, then you’re more liable to actually.

17:45
do something so you don’t disappoint them, right? And so this is why a professional coach can be so effective and probably a little bit more than in terms of a mentor, who a mentor again, is a little bit more informal. So they may not have the same expectations of you that a formal coach would to actually come prepared for your coaching sessions, to do homework because you better believe you’re gonna get homework.

18:11
to really address some of the points and put them into practice, and then be able to find little nuances that were impactful for you that week and things that you needed to change. So those things are really, really important if you want to grow. And that’s what’s the point of this, because I think a lot of times too, sometimes we get in these coaching situations, again,

18:36
in the context of therapy, it makes us feel really good to vent and share and have somebody commiserate with us. But then we sometimes don’t wanna go do anything about it, right? We just want to share, that makes us feel better, but then it’s like nothing ever changes, right? So the code should be making you feel a little bit uncomfortable into the context that you need to really invoke some change. So expect that there’s going to be

19:06
of more formalized structure, especially with regards to fees, meetings, goals, process tracking, success metrics, planning and personal development. Again, all of this should be mapped out by your coach. It may feel a little formulaic, it may feel a little cold, but it’s all in the attempt to make sure that you are processing through what they are telling you, you’re putting that into practice, and you’re trying it out, right?

19:36
Sometimes, and you heard Anne say this, but just to put a finer point on it, you expect miracles to happen in your sessions. What I think people don’t realize is that the real work happens when you’re not in the session. Because your coach isn’t gonna go through life with you, tapping you on the shoulder, saying, hey, this is a situation where you should be putting our coaching into practice. You have to be able to take the feedback and then go action against it.

20:04
And I think some of the most successful coaching I’ve experienced is when what the coach is telling me or advising me or planning with me to do is immediately actionable when I leave so that because my mind is opened to the feedback, I can see examples of it myself. But I do think that…

20:28
There’s certain situations and times where people just think that the coach is there to fix you. Well, the definition of a coach is to give you the feedback. You as the player have to go and be able to do against what you’re being told. Yep, exactly right. All right, so that was the four roles that your coach should be playing for you. And hopefully, you can see the nuances and then also just the different ways in which to manage that relationship and really help it.

20:56
propel you forward in your coaching situations. But for those of you that listen to us regularly, you know that our second section is always in the trenches. And this is where we take questions we get from listeners or clients or situations we’ve been in. They may be industry specific, but especially in this instance with coaching.

21:16
They cover things at a broad level so that no matter what your role or job is, you can put it into action with enough specificity that you can kind of see how to do that for yourself. So the first question we have here is, how do I go about finding a coach in general? And I’m gonna hand that to Ann. Yeah, so there is a gazillion ways that you can do this. And it depends too, if you’re looking for, again, a more of an interactive coach or…

21:44
a one-way coach and I’m going to get to the difference in that here in a second. But if you’re frequently, I found Scott through another coworker and I was talking to her about what I was going through. I, at that point, I knew I was probably going to leave PNG and I was looking for somebody who was going to help me with that transition. And you know, she was actually in a very similar boat and she’s like, well, I have this, you know, awesome coach who, um, who actually did the exact same thing and you might benefit from talking to him.

22:14
And that’s why how and why I reached out to Scott. So a lot of times it’s your situation, your context that provides an impetus for our conversation that then leads to that.

22:26
Sometimes people are a little bit protective of their coaches because they feel like it’s a little bit of a competitive advantage. So sometimes you can run into that. Or sometimes people feel really hesitant to share they have a coach. Because again, it’s like saying you have a therapist, to some extent. And nobody wants to believe that they can’t do it on their own kind of thing. So you might get a little bit into that. Also, you can find it through other types of communication. So for example,

22:56
We’ll just keep using Scott because he is easy to talk about. He’s a keynote speaker. So you may hear other keynote speakers who come and they present and they may have a coaching practice. Actually, frankly, a lot of them do. It’s their way that, aside from the keynoting, that they generate income and the way that they extend their credibility and their reputation. So that could be another way.

23:22
within P&G, there was a network of coaches that they brought into P&G that you could pay for. I had one as an executive coach a little later in my career that was identified for me that in order to help me really coalesce around the next level that I had to go to and really work through some things that I was struggling with. So that was a more paid formal relationship that the company offered.

23:51
Um, and then, like I said, there’s, sometimes there’s like one way coaching. So for example, when I left P&G, the first thing I went to was all these podcasters who are entrepreneurs. So Ed Mylett, um, Reid Hoffman, Tom Bilyeu, all these guys served as my coach. Eh, not paid coach, but some more, we’ll call it the mentor side, but in its one way. It was like, I could just feed off their content.

24:18
I just consumed all their podcasts. And it was so incredibly beneficial for me because they were the ones who told me that this journey was going to be tough and it’s tough for everybody. Not just for somebody who’s leaving P&G, which Scott gave me really good feedback on that, but for everybody. And that it was gonna take some time and there was gonna be a lot of nos and there was going, I mean, all these things that I probably wouldn’t have been prepared for otherwise. But again, like I don’t have any personal relationship.

24:48
with any of these guys, it was just a way of absorbing content and content on a regular basis that made me feel like I was a little bit more in touch. So that’s a little bit more of a one way. And then there’s obviously coaching platforms out there. Like I talked about Bistij, which is one that offers a very formalized coaching process. Tony Robbins is another one who offers a broad range of coaching. So if you’re interested in those sorts of things too, you can go and you can.

25:16
Maybe try a session, you can sit in and see if there’s something that you like, and then you can choose to take that even further. So it starts as like a little bit of a one way, and then it could transcend into something that’s a little bit more intimate. So that’s just a few ways, but there’s so many different ways. Yeah, and I would say too that you hear Ann say how to do it, but the whole point of what she’s saying is you have to proactively do it, right? So…

25:45
And you also have to do it when the needs surface for you and be able to self-identify that you need further advice. So one of the things that Anne and I do regularly because we’re not part of bigger organizations anymore is she’s more of a podcast fan. I’m more of an audible book listener, but we both have our people that we like to listen to and follow.

26:12
but then there are different reasons for those people. So like for example, Rachel Hollis for me is more of a, I identify with her from perspective in life, right? Patrick Lincione is a writer that I attach to because he grounds all of his principles, whether it’s leadership or culture or whatever of organizations in stories that I think takes a different.

26:38
type of talent, but that I can automatically see how to put that into play with our clients. And so I think this whole idea of finding a coach or finding coaches, you have to consistently be on top of it. It’s not just like, okay, I found one, check the box, I’m going to stick with this coach. It does change and should change over time. And you may have different, more informal.

27:06
outlets or people that are coaching you because you’re trying to solve or fix or look for something. So just the point of it’s your job, it’s your continuous job, and you need it to continue to progress in your career. All right. So number two in the trenches. How do I know my coach is right for me? And I just nicely set myself up for this because I gave some commentary about finding the right coach in the previous section. But the first thing I will say is…

27:35
It’s okay if it takes some time to find the coach that fits you. And it’s okay to interview a few and then just kind of move along if the connect doesn’t make sense for you or feel right or whatever the case might be. Especially when you’re putting your money forth. So if you are paying that hard earned money for a coach, you and they should be committed to making sure that it is the right solution.

28:03
And I would again reference episode 12, Four Unspoken Rules of Networking here, because I think, again, you can listen to that and sort of hear how to connect appropriately with people and make sure that you’re setting yourself up for success. I think that’s a good adjacent episode to this one. But the one thing I will say is, if you don’t try, you won’t find one. So that’s that pre-proactivity from the last question.

28:29
But you also have to do some homework to be clear what you’re looking for, ask for input from others on what they think you might need, trust your gut, intuition’s huge here. And Anna said this a couple of times, the person that you find really should make you uncomfortable, because they’re going to push you. Otherwise, what’s the point of having a coach, right? That person is there for the sole purpose of helping to propel you forward, which means they’re going to push on you. And so…

28:58
I think all of that to say that it’s okay if you aren’t quite sure how to do it or you feel like you’re stumbling a little bit. If you keep at it, you will get there. And then the other side of things here is that it does change. So I said that before, whether it’s formally or informally.

29:18
you’re gonna have to do this as part of your regular process. So you may as well get comfortable with it because your needs when you’re a junior person heading into your career versus your needs when you’re a VP with 15 years, there’s no way that if you’ve made it from junior person to VP, your needs are the same. Yeah, and an example for me here of a coach that was just right on for me, hit notes, Brenda, and she was my corporate executive coach and…

29:47
I knew from the first 10 minutes, just in the way that she managed herself, but in the way that she interacted with me too. I’m like, she knew I was a no-nonsense person right from the beginning, and so she was a no-nonsense person right back. So we matched in personality, we matched in communication style, and immediately she put me at ease because she’s like, I’ve been where you are, I’ve been there before, I get exactly what you’re going through, so I’m gonna be able to help you see through this. And I think that’s really important that

30:16
You know, there’s an element of empathy there, but there’s also an element of sympathy because they’ve been there. So to me, that was really important. To you, it may not be as important. Maybe you want somebody who doesn’t have any idea where you’ve been so that they could give you a totally outsider’s perspective. That’s good too, but I think the point is, I went in with some kind of qualification criteria that allow me to really be able to almost check the boxes of like, yes, is this coach gonna give me everything I need in order to be able to progress?

30:45
And I think that’s really important. And I just want to stress what April said to you about the comfort thing is like, if you walk in and you feel like, you know, this is your best friend and you know, and you know, you’re going to be friends with, that’s not the intent of your coach, right? It’s a coach is supposed to be somebody who’s going to be that mirror for you that’s going to allow you to be able to grow. So don’t walk in with the expectation that you guys, this is not going to be best buddies.

31:13
You don’t even necessarily like your coach. So I think make sure your qualification criteria is all about what you need in order to achieve whatever you’re looking for a coach to do for you. Yeah, and I would just add to that too, and say that we’ve mentioned that sometimes your company hires a coach for you. And so I’ve been in that situation where it’s a little bit more of a blanketed approach, and we all have the same coach. Now, number one,

31:42
I personally don’t think that that necessarily works, but what I would say is find the way to use that person to your advantage, and you can only do that if you invest the time and kind of investigate. So to Anne’s point about not necessarily liking your coach, I mean, I think it’s hard in the creative field in general to find people that know what to do with people like me, perhaps.

32:10
So I think there were situations where we hired a coach because people were clamoring for it, but it was the same person for a lot of us and we’re not the same people. And so, in some ways it worked against, honestly, the goal and the good idea of people to like, we will hire someone. But what I always tried to do is find ways in those situations to make good use of the time.

32:37
So one coach we had that I felt like after the first couple of sessions, I was just being repeated the same things every time too, I knew that he coached CEOs, and I knew that I wanted to be a CEO. And so I maneuvered our conversations to be more around that, give me tips. What behaviors in me do you see that you see in other CEOs? What things do you think I could work on that aren’t quite there yet? All of that kind of stuff. And I actually got some good information.

33:06
out of those sessions, but I had to figure out a way to make it work. And I think it’s just an important note to make that if you have someone assigned to you and it kind of is what it is, you can typically find ways to use the sessions. Don’t just give up. Well, I think that’s the point anyway, that you’re responsible for your coaching session. Yeah, exactly. So you can’t defer the responsibility to your coach. Right. And that’s part of the accountability piece. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

33:35
All right, in the trenches number three, can my manager be my coach? I’m taking this one. This drives me crazy, you guys. When people say that they love their manager so much that they want them to be their coach, I mean, if you’ve listened to anything we’ve said today, we talked about unbiased. It does not get more biased than that because you work for the person. So…

34:02
No matter how wonderful and great they are, no matter how much you love them, they can’t be unbiased in your feedback if they are responsible for your productivity as an employee of the company where you both work. And I’ve seen people do this for a variety of reasons, either as a cop out or they’re uncomfortable going to look for a coach to all the points we just made, or they genuinely really love their manager and they’re learning a lot from them.

34:28
It’s fine to like your manager. In fact, it’s a great situation when that happens, but that person is solely responsible for their own career, not yours. And they can’t possibly look out for you in the ways we’ve been talking about, nor can you really have a frank conversation about everything with that person. And so we really…

34:55
I will adamantly state this one, that you cannot nominate your manager as your coach. Also, this applies to being on the lookout when you potentially tap people within your organization. Now, if it’s a paid situation, that wouldn’t be allowed to happen anyway, because you can’t be doubly paying someone that works within your organization. It doesn’t work that way. But if this is like, you know, we don’t have the budget necessarily to pay for a coach right now, and you’re trying to seek someone out,

35:24
You have to be careful when they’re within your organization. I mean, back to the manager reference, what if they’re best friends with your manager and you share something you don’t like about your manager and they’re more loyal to the manager? That has the potential to get back to them. Or even if the person would never go back and tell the person, in your head, you’d have to have the idea of like, oh shoot, I picked this person, but their BFF is my manager. And so one of the things I can’t ever talk about is my manager, which therefore limits the coaching right off the bat. And so,

35:54
Where possible, we say look for someone outside of the organization entirely. If that is not available for whatever situation you’re in, then you’re gonna have to do your homework and dig really deep to make sure that whoever you’re nominating is someone that can be that unbiased person for you and honestly for them too. Yeah, and I think you bring up a bigger point which is you need to be very careful with who you share.

36:23
information with, especially if you’re going to be vulnerable, especially if you have issues with people, especially if there’s conflict. Because more times than not, that gets out. Even if you highly trust the other person, you think that person, there’s no way that person would throw me under the bus or share anything that I’m sharing with them. They’re going to keep it private. It’s really hard for somebody else to be in that position if they feel like…

36:51
frankly and honestly, there’s something in it for them to share that information. So as the unbiased piece, it goes to the fact that, especially within your organization, the personal interests trumps a lot of other interests, we’ll just put it that way. And a lot of the conversations you’re gonna wanna have with a co-chairmentor is going to be about your manager.

37:18
Right? So it’s really hard to have that. And now that’s not saying that you shouldn’t have feedback sessions with your manager. Oh, absolutely. And they should be, again, more formally set up so that you can understand how the feedback is structured. You can understand what the actions you need to be taken. So we’re not saying that you should never have any feedback sessions with your manager, but your manager isn’t the person you go to for your general ongoing coaching that you can be very vulnerable with.

37:42
And as an extension of that, you need to be very careful about who you choose to do that and what the relationships are with the people you choose to share that with. Even an offhanded comment about somebody has a very good chance of getting back to that and you should actually assume that it will. So you should not say anything to anybody that you don’t want that person to know. Yeah, exactly. And unfortunately, I mean, there are situations in organizations and I’ve been on the receiving end where someone actually sought me out and offered to be.

38:11
my coach and mentor, and then it quickly became a situation where it was like digging for dirt and trying to figure out what was going on in the dynamics of one of the teams. So I just think like whether that’s bad behavior very proactively, which it was in that example, or like Ann said, a pure accident, you can’t assume that people are going to be a vault when it comes to what you’re saying because we just aren’t built that way. I think that’s a good point. Really good point.

38:40
Moving right along here, number four, how do I break up with my coach? And I’ll let Ann lead this one. Yeah, it’s going to happen. I mean, like you said, April, early on, that you grow, your environment changes, your industry may change, you may get promoted, and you just outgrow people. And that’s fair to say. You outgrow businesses, too. We’ve had a lot of that conversation.

39:08
So there’s going to be a time where it’s going to be time to break up with your coach and or a mentor and that’s totally fine. So just want to say that’s totally fine. You don’t need to feel guilty. You don’t need to feel like you’re going to hurt their feelings. You’re not going to have to don’t feel any of that stuff because really when it comes down to it, this is about you. And this is about the time that you’re investing into your own personal growth. And when you get to that point that you’re feeling that you also

39:37
don’t want to waste the other person’s time either. Absolutely. So there’s a few ways that you can put some process in place so that you can honestly have that conversation. So first of all, a lot of coaching contracts are time-based. So they’ll coach you for a few months or so many sessions. Have that, because that gives you a way out. So if you get through your six months, it’s like, well, I’m feeling good.

40:05
You know, I think I’m gonna go try this and you know, I might be back, I might not be back, but it gives you like an out, right? So that’s one way. There’s also, you know, the opportunity to say, hey, if you’re moving into a different area or if you’re moving into a different interest, to say, hey, I’m gonna go seek out somebody else that’s maybe a little bit more aligned there so I can grow in a slightly different way. So that’s another way of just kind of politely, you know, telling somebody that, you know, it’s just time for me to move on.

40:35
Now frankly, if it’s a mentor, it’s a little bit easier because you just delay the amount of time that you actually engage them. So you know. That’s passive aggressive, come on. It’s fine though, it works and that can actually be okay. You know, where you don’t, I guess my point is you don’t actually have to like have a formal discussion in order to break up. I mean, I wouldn’t suggest ghosting them. I mean, that’s generally not, you know, done really well but you know.

41:01
If you have met every month, maybe you schedule it for every two months and then every three months and every four months. And you just kind of stretch that a little bit of that out. And that’s fine too. So I think the most important thing is like, you just really need to be honest with yourself and really take the, like, again, the responsibility to, to manage your own coaching and mentoring relationships. Because the other thing that tends to happen, and you alluded to this April, is that people try to set you up.

41:29
and want to coach. I mean, that happened like all the time at PNG. It’s like, well, we’re gonna find you a coach. I’m like, how can you find me a coach? Like, how do you know who’s gonna be the right coach for me? And sometimes you try those relationships out and they just don’t quite work either. So you have to just be, you know, kind of say the fact that not everything is going to work out, try not to let somebody force you into a mentoring coaching situation that feels really awkward. Let it kind of happen naturally, but then also let the breakup happen.

41:58
naturally too and I know you have a story about like a recent breakup that you had. A breakup. It’s kind of what it is though, right? Yeah and I think you know with my story my point is that the coach should probably know it too. Yeah. Like the very best coaches are gonna know the time has run its course. So my story is you know this person had been coaching me for right around a year.

42:25
And I think we both entered into it kind of knowing that it was one of those situational things where I needed some advice more like next step based. There were specific things that I wanted to embrace and learn. And we actually didn’t necessarily set up the timeframe, but I think we were just so aligned that we met one month and we looked across the table at each other. And at the same time, she was essentially like, I don’t think you need me anymore. As I was saying.

42:54
I don’t think we need to do this anymore. And so it worked out perfectly. And not to say that that person exits your life completely or like, you know, their hurt feelings or whatever, she and I are still friends. We still catch up. I comment on her Facebook posts, you know, I love her dog, all of those types of things. She’s still in my corner. She’s a cheerleader for me for sure when I send stuff out about our business. So.

43:18
It doesn’t always happen that easily, I will say that. But I think if you have a great relationship, an authentic relationship, and the coach is a good coach, they’re gonna know it’s coming too. So I would say, don’t waste their time. If it’s run its course and you’re not getting any worth out of it, I mean, I think people go into coaching that inherently are built to help people. And so they may not be getting the same fulfillment out of it either anymore. So there you go. All right.

43:47
Our fifth and final question in the trenches. How do I get the most out of my coaching? And we threw a lot at you today. So this one, I think I’m just gonna highlight kind of a summary of points of what we talked about. So you have kind of your key takeaways. Also remember that when we post episodes, we also post worksheets, which are meant to be your checklist slash, don’t forget all the key points we said, cause we know we pack a lot into these episodes.

44:15
So that can be a roadmap too, but in the absence of having that on the podcast, I’ll kind of just talk through. So first thing is be flexible, but be firm. So we’ve talked about being open to hearing feedback, to not necessarily discount someone just because there aren’t obvious connection points there, but then also it’s your role to manage the coaching situation. So be firm where you have to be and just be clear about that with the coach.

44:45
You’re responsible for doing the hard work. So you need to come to sessions prepared with what you’ve done since the last one and then what you think you need as a result of what you’ve done. So this is not a set it and forget it. It’s not, oh, okay, I have my weekly, monthly, bimonthly, whatever coaching session and now I can just sit back and wait for the next one and the brilliance that’s gonna come out of it. It does not work like that.

45:12
The next point here is about making those conversations structured. So again, that’s about coming prepared, not necessarily restrictive, but enough that you can get everything into the allotted time. If you’re signing up for a coach, you only have the time that you coach, you have that for that coach. So make sure that there is a list or a checklist you heard Anne say, or whatever the case might be of what you want to cover in each session. Um, listen as much as you talk.

45:40
I think is another one. There will be different varieties or times of how this plays out, right? In the first few sessions, you might be talking a lot and your coach might be doing more listening. But the point of this is to make sure that when things are being said to you, that you are hearing them and that you are internalizing the message. And if you need clarification that you’re asking for it, all of that type of stuff. It is not, to Anne’s previous point,

46:06
therapy to the point of just, I lay down on the couch and I tell you all my problems and then I feel better that I vented, that’s not going to lead to any success. So make sure that when feedback is being given to you, that you are hearing it and thinking about how to take action against it. And that’s really the last one here is about putting it into practice and making sure you’re doing the work. So if you have that plan of clear goals and stuff for coaching, you’re both aware of it. You know what you’re working toward. You know how many sessions you have. You know.

46:35
you know, why you joined up in the first place. But with that stuff clear, it’s really your role to drive the ship and make sure that you’re getting what you need out of it. Yeah, and just to build on the putting it into practice, not everything you try is going to work. Oh, no, no, no. I remember me with Brenda, she’s like, well, I think you need to go in, and she’s given me some pointers for how to handle it, actually, honestly, an agency conversation. And I tried it.

47:05
and it went miserably. I mean, it was miserable. And it was like, cause it was a little out of character for me. And it was a little bit like playing too much into a side that, you know, a little bit more of the edgy side that I actually, I was trying to like round out, but I was trying to be more clear as opposed to trying to hedge around it, which we talked about that a lot previously in our corporate agency discussion.

47:32
And it just did not go off well. I mean, it couldn’t have gone any worse. Like I had to have a follow-up call and a follow-up call. And I went back and I talked to Brenda and I’m like, yeah, this went really poorly. And so we had a conversation about that. She goes, okay, listen, like this part worked, this part does not work. And we had to reframe it. So then when I went to have the conversation again and try it again, it actually worked much better that time. But if I was just gonna get stuck in the fact of like, you know, I’m not gonna try anything. And you know me and April baked test and learners.

48:02
then you’re not putting it into practice. There’s really no point in doing the coaching and mentoring. If you’re just gonna stick with what you are, what you’re doing and what is in your mind that you think you should do, it’s just, there’s just no point. So try it. It’s not all gonna go well. There’s probably not gonna be detrimental to the fact that it’s gonna ruin your career. I mean, everything could generally be saved unless you really go off the edge, but you’re gonna have to try it.

48:32
You’re just gonna have to see what people’s reactions are and then ask people for the reaction. I tried something new, how did that go? And they’ll tell you. And I think that’s fair too, is to kind of let people know, hey, I’m gonna try a different approach this time. So set it up and say, hey, and then afterwards like, did that go better or not? And be really honest with yourself to get that feedback about how things are going. Some of it you’re gonna know intuitively, some of it you may have to ask a little bit. But you’re gonna have to do it.

49:00
Yeah, and I think to the point of growth, right? You’re not trying to stagnate and be what everyone has come to expect of you. Like it’s meant to be about growth. So I totally agree with the transparency of, look, I’m working with my coach. I’m gonna try something today. We’ll see how it goes. But also to Anne’s point, I mean, your therapist isn’t, or your therapist, there we go, your coach, your therapist too, is not.

49:25
It’s not like they can predict everything that’s going to go at every single moment and how it’s going to unfold and all of that. I mean, it’s coaching. So it’s not necessarily where you’re going to pull it off exactly right because you are trying something new. You are trying to grow. You’re dealing with things your way. And then the people you work with have come to expect you a certain way. And so there are going to be dynamics at play.

49:53
Yes, we love test and learning, but we also say that a lot of times you learn from what goes wrong more than you learn from things going perfectly. And so those moments, like you heard Anne just talk about like, that should not go well. I mean, you can tell that she’s reliving in her brain exactly what went down in that situation. And sometimes that can be more powerful than getting advice, going and doing it and being like, oh, it worked. It might not have actually been so great. It just was, you know, maybe it was passable or, you know, that sort of thing.

50:22
Well, I think the thing that came from that too is that I had her come to a session I was leading with the agency. So then I was like, hey, maybe you need to meet my, you have some of these, this dynamic and see this dynamic for yourself and actually see the personalities. And she did, and I told my agency, I’m like, hey, this is my coach, he’s gonna come, she’s gonna sit in. And it was great because then she could see it from that perspective. And then she was able to like fine tune it to a quicker point. Now.

50:51
Going back to my previous point where I’m saying, you know, it could still work if they don’t ever do that. Like they don’t need to be and understand your day-to-day business to the T like you do in order to be effective. But in that certain situation where I was like, I really think you need to see the dynamic that’s going in and seeing how I am being personally for something that I’m not quite seeing. Cause I felt like I had a blind spot that I needed her to point out to me. So that worked for us in that situation. But again, that’s another way you get something out of your coach. It’s like, it doesn’t have to be the traditional

51:20
hey, we’re gonna sit across from Zoom, or hey, we’re gonna sit across from a desk. I mean, bring them into your life. But that of course means that you have to be a little bit vulnerable with the people around you to say, I wanna get better, and this person’s gonna help me do it. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that’s another proactive approach. It’s not necessarily, I mean, we’re saying it’s not cookie cutter at all by any means, nor should it be. So try things out, do what works for you, but again, be open.

51:47
and know that things are gonna happen, mistakes are gonna happen, and you’re gonna have to change course. All right, so that is our in the trenches section. So we started today with the four roles your coach should play. We gave you some real world examples, and hopefully you got some information on how to really put your coaching into practice. And typically our third and final segment, for those of you who listen to us regularly, is a…

52:12
brand or an example or someone we really admire that does coaching well. But we’ve put a lot of those out there for you today and we’ve given you examples of what we’ve experienced. And so here we’re gonna put in a shameless plug for ourselves. I mean, part of the reason we started this partnership was to get into coaching more formally. So taking everything we’ve learned, experienced, just like the other aspects of our business and putting that into practice. So…

52:40
You heard us talk about things that we experienced over the years and some anecdotes of people that we’ve coached. We’d really like to ask you to come and work with us, whether it’s career advice or, you know, general business advice or personal branding work is one of the places where we really lean into coaching to marketing and branding, whatever the role may be. We are into coaching. We love doing it. We’ve learned a lot from the things that go well and not so well. So.

53:07
Come see us, and if you mentioned that you heard about coaching on this podcast, we will give you a free 30-minute consultation. So there’s your incentive to come talk to us today. Yes, and also we could do it in a bunch of different formats too. So we could do it one-on-one, we could do small teams, we actually have a series of webinars as well that address a lot of these issues. So that’s, again, as we talked about, an easy way to kind of sense out if the coaching is right for you, if we’re the right coaches for you.

53:37
That might be a really easy way of really getting to understand what we are about, what we do, and how we can help. Yeah, absolutely. Really good point. And especially given COVID times, right? We have to be more flexible now than ever. So happy to work with you and hope to hear from all of you soon. And with that, go and exercise your marketing smarts. Still need help in growing your marketing smarts? Contact us through our website, fort

54:04
We can help you become a savvier marketer through coaching or training you and your team or doing the work on your behalf. Please also help us grow the podcast by rating and reviewing on your player of choice and sharing with at least one person. Now go show off your marketing smarts.