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Classics: 4 Tips for Combatting Impostor Syndrome for Success with Ryane LeCesne, Master Your Mindset Coach: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Jun 18, 2024

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

In this Classics episode, we’re talking how to combat Impostor Syndrome with Ryane LeCesne. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

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Marketing Smarts: Classics: 4 Tips for Combatting Impostor Syndrome for Success with Ryane LeCesne, Master Your Mindset Coach

Impostor Syndrome is very real and very common. How do you combat it? It comes down to embracing the 80/20 rule, being brave enough to step outside the box, becoming a lifelong learner, and getting in front of managing change. We wanted you to learn from a true expert in the space, so we welcomed on Ryane LeCesne. She’s the Master Your Mindset Coach at Inspire Brand Consulting. This episode covers everything from the Pareto Principle to courage. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How do you combat Impostor Syndrome?
  • What is the 80/20 rule?
  • How do you step outside your comfort zone?
  • Why is it so important to keep learning?
  • How do you get in front of managing change?
  • Is perfectionism bad?
  • How does anxiety tie into Impostor Syndrome?
  • What is Who Moved My Cheese? about?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at:

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 


Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:00
This is Marketing Smarts – a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader No matter your level, and each episode will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to Marketing Smarts! I am Anne Candido.

April Martini 0:23
And I am April martini.

Anne Candido 0:24
And today’s another Marketing Smarts Classic. This one is with Ryane of Master Your Mindset Coach all around the topic of impostor syndrome and how to combat it. We brought this one back because it is a topic that comes up time and again with our coaching clients. In fact, we just tackled it on the ForthRight Women side with our monthly power for mental health awareness month. So net, it continues to be super relevant and something all of us face in our professional lives. In this episode, we get into how to recognize impostor syndrome when it is happening and stop in his tracks with tips and tools we can use both in the moment and build a skills over time, all with the purpose of arming us on our journeys to success through combating impostor syndrome. And with that, let’s get into four tips for combating impostor syndrome for success with Ryane, Master Your Mindset coach. Hi, Ryane,

you want to introduce yourself?

Ryane LeCesne 1:13
Yes. So good to be with you both. Thank you, April and Anne, for having me on your amazing show. I’m Ryane LeCesne. And I am a coach, specifically who works with high achieving women to master their mindset to advance their professional dreams, whether that is to build a career to scale that career to move up in that career, or if it’s to start scale, a small business and I help people to, as you all beautifully framed, really get out of their own way. That thing called fear, false evidence appearing real and one of those, like pieces kind of of evidence could be I feel someone feels like an imposter, right? That’s like the experience. That is how fear is showing up in that moment. And to really help people come to come to terms with right come to peace with that part of ourselves. That is fear driven, that has fear. And that fear can take on lots of different personas, right i We’re talking about impostor syndrome, which is one of the three that I see over and over, I see a lot of perfectionism, which is like the cousin to imposter syndrome, right? It’s like, it’s like her twin. And then there’s really a third that I see which I have coined as distraction ism, which is really unmanaged, undiagnosed ADHD. And that Trifecta with first smart, smart, smart people. It’s really hard, you know, and as you talked about in your intro, this thing impostor syndrome, it’s a very real with a small are it you know, small arm meaning? No one is an imposter in their own lives. You are the uesd you could ever be right. There’s like no other you in the world. It doesn’t matter if you have a dinglehopper or whatever. It’s called someone who looks exactly like you. Oh, my gosh, my cousin looks just like you. And I’ve, you know, seen you across the world. And oh, my gosh, it’s so amazing. But no, that’s not you. It is someone who looks like you, you are the only you. And so, with that fear. Oftentimes, we’re calling it impostor syndrome today, which is a very small, our experienced real experience. There is a thought habit, there is a habit, that habitual way of thinking of perceiving oneself that says, no matter what my resume says, no matter what my background says, my experiences, my expertise, says my PhD says, I am going to be called out not knowing not belonging, not being good enough. And that’s a fairly scary experience. And it affects like, you know, at the study site, at person, the people, you know, adults in the US have experienced impostor syndrome. It’s true like moments, and yet there’s a group of people who that is a persistent way of seeing themselves and that’s a really hard road to hoe, you know, to be high achieving have big dreams. Also to have achieved things and to believe that you’re, you’re not the reason for those things. It’s a hard way hard way to live.

April Martini 4:37
So as you all hear, Ryane’s gonna be a great addition to this conversation today. We just heard all that passion and experience. So with that, we’re gonna get into four tips for combating impostor syndrome for success. So the first one we have here is embracing the 80 for the 20 rule and like and said, we’d like to give definitions where they apply. This is the belief those of you that aren’t totally aware or have heard it but don’t really know is that 80% of your results come from 20% of your efforts. And this is really important because you heard Ryan talk about perfectionism, we’re talking a lot about impostor syndrome, here they go hand in hand. So if you can embrace this philosophy of the 80, for the 20, then you can help yourself assess whether that additional bit of effort is actually going to be worth what is likely a minimal result. So it can get you out of that swirl of everything has to be perfect all the time. One of the places that we see impostor syndrome within our clients as well, because we share this, we’re all coaches, right. And so within some parts of our business, as we see it, show up where people start to think that it’s not worth it unless it is perfect. And so managing against that belief is really important. Now, more than ever, because we have so very many things on our plate all the time, right? Like I often talk to people in terms of think about how many email messages you get in your inbox versus what you did call it 1015 years ago, right? That’s your number that is one channel, if you think you’re gonna perfectly open answer address all of those emails in one day, or whatever your time, 24 hours, you’re totally crazy. So we have to start to manage against that perfectionism, because it’s just not a possibility in the world we live in today. And I often think in my head about before computers, because we’re old enough to know about that period of time, unfortunately, but it’s the reality. I think about the little perfectionist that lived within me. And I talked about this sometimes with people where if I was writing, and especially when I started writing in pen, if I made one little mistake, I would start completely over. And I would do that as many times as it took for it to be absolutely perfect. And that didn’t matter if it was a test, stupid, 10 minute homework assignment, what it was. And so fast forwarding to now when I get stuck in my head, I go back to that anecdote and I think about how can I morph what I’m trying to do here and live within that ad for the 20 rule. So that I can manage outside of the perfectionism and the resulting impostor syndrome that kind of like you said, they work together in tandem, and then you can find yourself in this world. What do you think, Ryane?

Ryane LeCesne 7:08
April, so good, so good. So good. What a great mirroring of 8020. Like, because talking about the rewriting of the, you know, I just I see myself at my mom’s and my parents kitchen table, writing 1000s of thank you notes, having the mistake, and my mom put the next card, it didn’t matter that they were you know, like, note cards aren’t free. It wasn’t just on like copy paper, which isn’t free either. But it didn’t matter how many note cards we went through, there was no white out it was the needed must be perfectly executed. Right. So that 8020 rule did not apply there. So I really understand what you mean about those moments, where it’s almost you can see where it gets ingrained. Like, oh, yeah, there it is. You know, there’s the perfectionism there. There’s the training for it at 20. I think that that is a really smart system and structure to help rein one’s self in from the quicksand of perfectionism and impostor syndrome. In that moment, I think that that is an absolutely wonderful, almost like a mind tack, to literally, you know, almost carry around it as a flashcard, you know, at least a mental one of like, Okay, where am I within this project? You know, the goal is, one, the goal is Completion. And as a high achiever, it’s probably you know, to be completed with excellence, and then we have to get into defining this is the 8020. What is excellence? You know, does excellence mean? That you’ve read it, you know, a bazillion times and that you literally have a knot in your stomach around? This is the important thing. What is someone going to perceive of me when they open this email? Right? Is this and that’s the projection, what does this email mean about me and my value and my worth? And that’s where our productivity meaning like the things that we produce and who we are as people, they can it can become like a confluence I am my product and my product is near and my production or production has been my value is determined on what I can produce. And it’s very dicey when we when we’re thinking when we’re seeing the world that way. Because if we feel that our value, and our worth is determined by the perfection or the typos within this email as an example, you know, that’s going to mean that I’m not smart. I’m not good enough. I’m a bad person. So like, if that’s the cycle that someone’s in, you know, 8020 is a wonderful structure to really recalibrate. What’s the point here? You know, like But the point is that this is done, it’s executed to the point where somebody can read it and understand it. I’m a human being. So 8020, like 80% of this meaning like it’s finished, and 20% of it might have like some issues, or the other flip of it is 80% of this doesn’t matter and 20% of it does. So the rule kind of applies either way, right? It’s like, Whatever, whatever percentage you’re gonna focus on, it’s a great hack to get out of 100% 100 is not gonna happen. It’s like an ever evolving goal stick. So is it, you know, I’m focused on the 20%. They the rule is, if you focus on the 20%, the 80%, doesn’t really matter. Okay, so 20% of this is completely right. So the 80%, that’s not doesn’t make a difference. It could be the inverse, you know, 80% of this is correct. And 20% is added care, you know, and I’m just not gonna worry about the rest of it. So I think as a mind hack, outside of even the definition, the ratio seems to really at least pull me out of the moment. Both ways.

Anne Candido 11:10
Yeah. And I think repeating you said resonates with me. And it’s a hard thing to wrestle with, especially, as you said, high achievers or high performers, which, when you get labeled, that it’s almost feels like a death sentence, right? Because it seems like a level of expectation that you got, you have to constantly and consistently achieve in order to maintain your status as a high performer or a high achiever. So then the perfectionism goes on double duty, because it’s like, well, not only does it have to be good, it has to be perfect because I’m a high achiever. So then you just get stuck in this, like little swirl in your head of not ever being able to move forward, because you’re constantly at fear that somebody is going to discover something that’s not quite perfect. And they’re going to call you out, you’re going to lose your I’m a high achiever or a high performer badge, right? So I think that was like a big one that I always wrestled with, especially at p&g, which was, what does that level of quality need to be? What does that level of quality need to look like in order to be able to still feel good about the delivery of whatever it is, but be able to move on because the other flipside of that which would happen is this. If you’re consistently working and working and working, working on something, until it’s quote, unquote, perfect, that obviously means you’re not working on other things. So you’re, you’re you’re missing the bigger picture. And this is where a lot of the people we coach miss, when they’re trying to go to a manager role, right? They’re missing that the things that you’re doing, even though they’re still very important are not the critical piece that people are looking for you to play. They’re looking for you to play, the strategy, the thought leadership, those sorts of things. So I get mired down with the Kwanko perfectionism, then we lose track of the bigger picture. But then what also happens is that we close ourselves off to feedback, right? I remember like couldn’t get somebody so perfect. And even sometimes me and April still had this back and forth. I’m like, it is totally fine. It is so good. I do not need any more feedback on this. I do not need anybody else tell me anything else I need to do is perfect. I want to move on. I want to be done with this I put everything in didn’t know what to go do and then you just like so then you lose that that feedback loop, which can help make you better because April always makes my stuff better be grudgingly I say that a high achiever and a high performer, right. So I think there’s an element of like, when you say the mindset thing, I think is really important. That being a perfectionism isn’t equating to being a high achiever a higher high performer, it’s good to obviously put whatever effort you need into it and to make it really good, but usually it’s high performers. High achievers are 80% Is somebody else’s 200%. So kind of being able to calibrate that I think is really important, too. Yeah,

Ryane LeCesne 13:45
I totally agree. And I cannot echo enough about the labels and how, again, this idea of a lot of our corporate speak, we really take on as our personas, you know, like I’m high achieving, and that’s like a label. And that makes sense. And I’m going to say corporate, but you know, that makes sense. Like through all of academia that there’s like stratas and you know, all of that. And when we know naming something is very important. Like in psychology, when we can name we’re naming impostor syndrome, we’re naming it we’re giving it a name a distinction, so that when people experience is like, oh my gosh, that’s what that thing is. I’m not crazy. That is different than a label right? A label is kind of that exactly when and just talked about like that kind of post or like I’m high achieving and now I’ve gotta like, I’ve got this label, I’ve got a ring the battle all the time, which is different then, like, I like to achieve high. Its imi achieve. This is the expectation

Anne Candido 14:51
carbon a noun, right? Yeah, it’s

Ryane LeCesne 14:55
really different and that’s huge. That’s a huge you know, huge piece they’re like we got to, we’ve got to decide like, actually Perfection isn’t what I’m aiming for and come up with. What are the distinctions for ourselves? That is our marker of what we’re aiming for, for sure. Yeah. And

April Martini 15:14
I think that brings us actually nicely to our next point, or next, maybe hurdle that gets in our way. And that is number two is to be brave enough to step outside the box. And so when we think about this one, and I think this applies, it definitely applies to high achievers, it applies, I think, anytime anyone is striving for the next thing, though, as well. So it kind of encompasses all of that. And it’s this idea that there’s this fear, because we get in our comfort zones, right. And this is where impostor syndrome comes up, I couldn’t possibly go and do x, and then we get in our head about why we can’t possibly go and do X. One of the examples I really like here, and you talked about coaching women really specifically Ryan, this is not maybe women’s specific, but the stat is, is that as women, when we read a job description, we won’t apply unless we feel like we’re 100% qualified, whereas our male counterparts will apply when they feel like they can do 60% of it, right? nevermind the fact that most job descriptions, this is a little bit of a soapbox moment, but they’re written for unicorns, right? Nobody can ever do 100% of what we all put in job descriptions, because we’re like, well, if I’m gonna ask, I’m gonna make the ask, right, I’m gonna ask for every single thing that I want, not thinking about it through that human lens. But the point of this is, is I think that really exemplifies this idea of being brave enough to say, I am going to step outside the comfort zone of what I’m doing. And I know that I don’t know everything. As humans, we cannot know everything. And I’m going to get comfortable with that. And one of the other analogies we like, is this idea of how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time. And so when Anna and I are working with people around this whole idea of stepping outside the box, first, it’s getting over whatever the neuroses is, and a lot of times it’s associated with the imposter syndrome, right? Why not? Why not? You? Why can’t you be the person? Why can’t this be the next role, but then very quickly, we say, and also you don’t have to be able to go and do that whole roll tomorrow, you’re stepping into whatever it is or that project, we’re not asking you to accomplish it in 24 hours, we’re asking you to take on whatever goal or vision for yourself you’re working against. And then the advice is just go and do the next thing to chip away at it. And you don’t have to be the one with all the answers. Because the other sub point here is that we need other people for our success. And this is something we also talk about all the time, there’s very little, especially if you’re a high achiever in business, and you want to climb that ladder, every rung you go up, you need other people around you more, because it’s impossible to continue to do that have that strategic vision and achieve every single project along the way. And so being willing and brave enough to take that step or to say out loud, I don’t know how to do this whole thing, but I’m going to make the next move, or I’m gonna take on that project. And then just going and doing the next thing can allow us to progress forward and really combat that feeling of imposter syndrome, because we give ourselves the allowance that we don’t have to know it all, do it all be it all in every single moment. It’s about the moments and how they all add up together.

Ryane LeCesne 18:17
Yeah, that’s huge. I think that that is super huge. So pulling on a couple of threads there. One is one of the steps that I teach is this idea of building a brilliance team. And that’s exactly what you’re saying is that we are not intended, or designed to do life all alone. And all by ourselves. We’re just we’re not designed to do it that way. And we’re certainly not designed to achieve our goals in that way. And there are a universe of people who are like, masterfully designed to help all of us in their own unique ways, right? Like doctors, lawyers, coaches, they all have spent their lives dedicated to help people to solve problems. And so often we don’t leverage support, we have an issue and we don’t even know Oh, my gosh, I could I could go to a coach to solve this or an acupuncturist or, you know, my I really need to check on my primary care doctor, it’s like, Are we are we using these resources that are at our disposal to really help us shift out of survival mode and move into thriving so that piece of doing it alone and and we’re not even talking about within the corporate structure within a work structure, I was just even speaking of just life structure, but corporate people are humans. So we’re talking about, you know, and human individuals. So I think that that is absolutely incredibly important. This idea of having a brilliance team and leaning into that. piece there is holy, holy important, not thinking that you can do it alone. Another piece that you had mentioned around, you know, this idea of women and feeling like we have to know it all, we’re having to fit all of the descriptors before putting our name in the hat or feeling like we are enough, that’s again, going back to even that 8020. Right. So looking at that list and saying, I’ve got 80% of everything that they’re saying, and I’m going to lean into that I’m going to own that 80%. And I’m not gonna even focus, my focus is solely on the 80 not on the lacking, like that’s, that is where I think, again, that system of 8020 is really, really critical for people who can go down the portal of impostor syndrome, and perfectionism, as it relates to this idea of comfort zone. That’s a big one. And the thing that’s so like, Hmm, interesting, and kind of like a morphus, about comfort zones, is that, do we really recognize when we’re in them? You know, it’s like, really a tricky kind of thing. Because the alternative is discomfort. And who wants that? Right? So it’s like, it’s like our crowns. And like kind of asking ourselves to hold the space of discomfort. And when we do that, with intention, like, I know that I’m asking myself to go for the school, I’ve decided that I want to move in that direction. And yet, there’s an impediment. It can’t be me, I can’t be the one, you know, I’m not enough. And so what happens is, we get so lost in the story of lacking that we aren’t in yet. There’s a decision. So there’s suffering, right? I want this thing. And yet, I’m stuck in this belief. And so then there’s the question and use the word a few times, April, which is willing, am I willing to shift the story? Am I willing to see this in a different direction? And am I willing to let go of the old story, and think of and actually just coach through this with my own coach today, today, thinking of possibility, what’s possible? What else is possible? Because oftentimes, when we’re going through seasons of discomfort, particularly around our goals, the discomfort is, can be so overwhelming, it can almost feel like I’m a bad person, because I have these really heavy feelings. Heavy feels bad. Therefore, I almost must be that because all this is happening. In a person psychology, they don’t, we are moving so fast. We’re moving so fast in our lives. We’re not taught to pause and say, Okay, this is what’s happening, folks. In my brain, I’ve got 10 people living in myself, one person, one person wants a business, there’s eight of you who are terrified of it. One person wants to go pick lilies, and seven of you are sleeping. So how do we get everybody together? You know, and we don’t do that we don’t we’re not taught to pause and, you know, take these, like compartmental views of ourselves, which is why conversations like this are so important. And so if when we do pause and recognize, well, there’s a part of me that really wants this and there’s a part of me that stuck in the story. However, I am the master of myself, am I willing to move in this direction to reform this story, so that I am more aligned with the things that I want, and that really takes serious consciousness to slow that down? versus what we normally do? We feel the discomfort, the discomfort when we’re talking about discomfort, we’re talking about overwhelm. We’re talking about anxiety, we’re talking about fear, those feelings again, they feel bad, and so it can feel like why must be a bad person. No, no, no, that’s fear. That’s just comfort. You’re a good person doing the right things. And you’re growing so like really transforming that language internally from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset and recognizing like, Oh no, this discomfort is actually a alignment with my goals and growth and holding the space for ourselves with that. Yeah,

Anne Candido 25:07
I think there’s definitely like an internal external battle that’s constantly kind of going on with us when, especially around this whole concept of not knowing what I don’t know. And then being afraid someone’s going to ask me something that I don’t know and and how do I respond to that, and then I’m gonna look stupid. That’s where the whole like imposter syndrome comes in. And I really big crux of when we are talking to people who are trying to go for that next level is one of the big reasons why they don’t want to go to that next level, because they don’t want to have to be faced with questions that they may not, quote unquote, know the answer to. So I’m just gonna give two really tangible things here that we coach, those who are feeling this fear, one from the internal standpoint is, you got to believe in your ability to be able to figure things out. And the only way you get to that is by recognizing how you figure things out in the past, because that’s, it’s a practice, it’s not something that again, that label that you are talking about, right? It’s not a label, it is a practice of being able to figure things out, when you can believe in your ability to be able to figure things out, then you can attack all these other things that come to you now, in a moment, you may not know. And so there’s two ways that we we coach folks, one is a PR technique, which is called Bridging, which is when you’re walking into any kind of these conversations around, if it’s an interview, or a meeting or whatever, you have your set message track, if somebody asks you something you don’t know. And the minute you bridge it back to something that you want to talk about. You feel knowledgeable about kind of saying what you’re saying right about like being very much in like rewriting that narrative, or feeling really comfortable about what you are representing what you’re bringing to the table. You don’t need to dwell necessarily on everything you don’t know, you bridge it to something you do now. And in practicality and and in practice, it shows up all the time. And I’ll use an example from my daughter, who’s 15 Corinne, she got a babysitting job with a person in her neighborhood. But she could not remember which house they lived in. But she felt like she should know what house that they lived in, because her little brother hangs out with him all the time. And so she’s like, I can’t ask them like what house it is, you can don’t feel stupid asking that. So what she did is she said, Hey, Louis, you want to go for a little walk around the neighborhood? And so she went for a walk a little bit? Because you know, she’s like, he doesn’t know address as it would be able to tell her exactly without actually putting in. So she went and she goes, and whose house is that? And whose house is that? Until Until Louie got to the house that she’s supposed to pay you. So she goes okay, now I got it. So it was like a little bit about being resourceful. And sometimes I gamified just like, Okay, how can I find this out without like telling people that I actually don’t know. So bridging can be one technique, but resourcefulness or kind of stalling sometimes in the moment and kind of rethinking through, you don’t necessarily intimate, you don’t know, you just like, oh, that’s you know, it’s an interesting point. And then you go back and you Google everything you know about it, so you have some perspective on it. So you just stall a little bit. So those are kind of tangible techniques that I found very useful. And I know we coach other folks on in when they get in those moments of like sheer terror went to my ask him something that they’re like, I don’t know the answer to that. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

April Martini 28:11
Which interestingly brings us nicely to the next point, which is number three is being becoming a lifelong learner. And I think all of the points that both of you made, I just kept coming back to whether it is like, Alright, I need to sort out my own brain, what’s going on in here, or I need some space from it. Or I need a different perspective on it. Or I’m in a situation where I don’t know what to do. I think one of the ways that impostor syndrome really gets in the way, is when we don’t have other outlets and other things that we’re doing to broaden our perspective, and doing that on a continual basis. And so, you know, the comment was made about how do you know when you’re in the States? Or how do you kind of cue yourself, one of the things that we do coach people on is to always be learning new things. And the caveat to that is not doing it again, in a way where you think you have to take a run at something and become perfect data, or you have to know everything about it. That’s not what we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about is this ongoing curiosity or this thirst for new perspectives and knowledge that can help you further or get closer toward your goals. And so in those situations, exactly what you said, you don’t have to say, I literally know nothing about that. You just say, Oh, it’s an interesting point, like and said, and then you go and you Google, right. We do this all the time. You know, one of the things that we say one of the benefits we bring to our clients is because we’re more on the brand building and marketing side of things. We see tons of different businesses. Our clients are in their businesses for 40 or more hours a week, so we feel responsible to bring them new knowledge. Well, how do we get that? Well, we start to identify patterns across cloud It’s or questions that are coming up all the time. And then we go and we learn. And we talk on this podcast, we talk all the time on our social media and our website about things we’re reading or things we’re educating ourselves on, or trends and topics that continue to come up again. And again, recruiting and retention has been a top of mine, one, we just brought on a client to do an episode, we have an offering now on how to handle that. These are all ways in which we continue to broaden our perspective and our experiences, but do them in a way that is helpful to what we’re trying to achieve versus overwhelming. Because one of the other things we do see is that when some of our clients are trying to get to the next thing, they fall under the spell of I have to voraciously intake all of this stuff, and there’s no processing, that then happens. And so then it becomes kind of a self fulfilling prophecy of like, well, I tried that. And it didn’t work out when it’s like, no, no, no, you did the right thing to your point, Ryan about we’re all good people, we’re we have good intentions, you did the right thing, you just didn’t do it in a way that’s going to solve for what you’re solving for. So taking a step back, breaking that down. But all of this to say is if we commit ourselves to be curious, and I think human beings are generally built that way, then learning new things just opens up new ways of thinking new avenues, new approaches, all of those types of things, which then helps us believe that we are resourceful. And we have the tools to be able to figure things out. Or if we don’t we know how to go and find them.

Ryane LeCesne 31:33
Yeah, so much, so much wisdom there. And so I’m going to talk a little bit about how perfectionism can stand in an imposter syndrome can stand in the way of that, because ideally, and I’m a learner, too, I’m a learner. And I really value data. So like one of my five strengths is Maximizer like I’m and input, so I’m actually both. So it’s like taking it in. And then I’m gonna maximize this information. So I really, really, really, really like understand what you mean. And through the seven years of owning a business from scratch, not a business owner prior to not marketing coaching, like none of it. Even though my background, I have a degree in communications. I didn’t sort of sum what you’re saying. That was not my career. So I took in the information, but it hadn’t synthesized it, even communications right prior to owning a business. And so I i understand again, what you mean to about a start, you know, person startup business, everything being new. I’ve got to learn how to do website, I’ve got to learn how to do calendaring, all these things are things that people starting businesses need to learn, it’s literally drinking through not even a fire hose. I don’t know something bigger than a fire hose. It’s like the biggest thing you’ve ever, you know, coming at you at one time. And so a couple of things here, I think it’s really, really, really important to stay a learner to stay curious. I think that that is so key. And April, also what you said about slowing down to allow yourself to process what you’ve learned, is so key. Because there’s that piece in the middle where we’ve tried something, right, we’ve invested again, and another marketing information webinar, blah, blah, blah, whatever system fine. We learned it all. And now we’re going to implement it. And then it quote unquote, didn’t work. And this is how like impostor syndrome, perfectionism comes in to the last segment we just talked about, which is I tried this thing. It didn’t work. And I’m bad. I’m bad at this. I’m bad at being a business owner. I’m bad at attaining goals. I’m bad at executing I’m bad at social media. I’m, and it might not sound like I’m bad. That’s a very sort of elementary. This sucks, I’m terrible. It’s awful. It’s overwhelming. It’s, you know, however adult language, it’s said in our minds, it becomes a real impasse of being able to move forward. Because there is this constant like taking in information and this expectation that you’re gonna master it and perfect it and implement it all, like you said in 24 hours. And that is oftentimes expectations that we hold for ourselves, right? I am supposed to be able to I should do this, I should know this. And yet, like the person doesn’t, and they’re sitting with that and that again, doesn’t feel good. And it can be translated by in the nervous system because all this happening at lightning fast. I am bad like I am. I’m not providing for my family. I’m not showing up as the spouse that I want the parent that I want. I’m overwhelmed and frustrated. So it unravels and cascades really quickly, right. And so impostor syndrome and and perfectionism play are and distractions and play a role in that in a person having to really self regulate. Okay? Am I learning what I’m learning in this moment from a lens of curiosity, like you talked about? This is interesting, I’m growing from this, or at this moment, could be same content that the person is consuming? Am I ingesting this from the perspective of I should know this? I’ve got it, you know, I should already have known this. Why didn’t I already know this? Right? The sense of desperation, because either way, is going to be the output of that information. And so if the input is the one of desperation, pause, you know, take that breath, re really resend herself to check in at 20. Do I already know 80% of this 20% of I can let go. Or, you know, what, what’s happening here, like just level setting, checking in, because there is again, that fine line. And that we’ve been we’ve been dancing on these fine lines today, you know, like Curiosity versus desperation learning. And there’s a very fine line between the two, but one that’s profound, and one that leads in very, very different directions. So I think it’s really important as we’re, as we are learning new information, which is constantly necessary that we’re checking in, how are we as the learner and how are we taking in that information? What are we expecting ourselves to do with that knowledge?

Anne Candido 36:40
Yeah, it’s such an important point. Because if you think about what is the opposite of an imposter? It’s not an expert. I mean, that’s not and that’s where I think people kind of feel like if I’m not, if I’m in order not to be an impostor, I need to be an expert, I think the opposite of imposter is being like a self identified learner. Right? Because that is the only way that you are really able to persevere through a lot of this, like stuff that we’ve been talking about, that just kind of weighs down on our psyche and our ability to perform on our mental capacity, all of those sorts of things. So if you can kind of get around the fact that okay, the opposite of imposter is not expert, but the opposite of imposter is a self identify learner, then things like testing and learning becomes Okay, things like being able to fail becomes okay. And I think what really hit for me on this point, because this was a, this was a really, really hard one for me, is when we look and we think about things that people are really good at. So for example, when me and April started this podcast, I mean, we obviously started one little podcast, and amidst a sea of all these people who’ve been doing it for a very, very long time, and you know, after about, you know, 20 episodes are like, Why are we any better? Like, why isn’t that not growing the way that we wanted to right and everything. And we look at what these people over here, and all these people remember, like, oh, yeah, they just been doing it longer. So sometimes it’s not about the fact that they know any more, or they are superb experts again, at it, they just were learners, they learned through it. And they learned and they took the time, and they experienced their failures, and they experienced the setbacks. And they pivoted, and they did all these things that they needed to do in order to continue to persevere at this thing that they want to be good at. And so I think that’s a really important thing to understand. Because it was a really big insight for me is that we see these people and we see like, quote, unquote, how good they are. And they seem to be the experts in the fields, like, really, they just been doing it longer. We’re just on the path, we’re on the path to doing it. But we’re just not haven’t done it as long as these people have. So it helps to kind of put things in perspective, I think and kind of calibrated down and it’s not like a black and white thing like you were saying, right? It’s not like you’re bad or you’re good at it. You’re like, Oh, I’m onto the path of being able to be more masterful at this, because I am learning how to be good at this,

Ryane LeCesne 38:58
which I think is as an inner conversation. What and just what I just demonstrated for all of us, is that toggle between perfectionism impostor syndrome mindset, and the inner conversation of like, I can figure this out, right? Like, I am resourceful I can do this. And that level of conversation is going to help a person move forward versus the other conversation which is guaranteed to keep someone stuck, for sure.

April Martini 39:28
Yeah, I think that is a great point. And I think the proactivity that we just talked about, and turning the narrative to be more positive, really goes to the next point, which is get in front of managing change. And this is our fourth and final point. And it’s for a reason. You just heard and give the example of sometimes it’s just factual right? That is a factual statement. These people have been doing this longer than me there is absolutely nothing that I can do about the fact that they’ve been doing things longer than me. It’s the same thing when we talk about man Managing change, right? There’s the expression out there of the only constant in life is change. That’s totally true. If COVID has taught us anything, it’s that that is happening in our world on steroids across all different variables, where you work now and how jobs look, and who’s staying and going. I mean, there’s so many things that emerge that we never could have foreseen, right. And so I think if we can accept that things are going to change, this is also a really good place to get over the overwhelm that I think happens. And I think this point goes hand in hand with the last one. And admittedly, all of these are very interwoven. And you’ve heard in the conversation here. But I think that if you can just know in your head, okay, change is going to happen. And so then when it does, you’re not mad or disappointed, or think it really has anything to do with you personally, other than it’s just the way things are, it makes it a lot easier to then go and do something about it. And we talked about, you know, digital, and in terms of things like email, and how many messages we get, but digital in and of itself is a huge bucket. And it’s changing all the time. I mean, I just saw an email today about Analytics and Google and how things are, you know, once again, switching and I, it did pop into my head, like, Thank God, I don’t do that for a living, because man, that’s a whole lot of change. And then I like on the other side was like, You do marketing, which is one of the most nebulous things on the planet, guess what, it’s changing all the time. You live there, too, right? But with this point, I think it can just be an objective thing, and you know that you have to be open to it, then when it happens, it’s not a disappointment. It’s just a way of life. It’s like, okay, well, I knew this was gonna happen. So now what am I going to go and do about it. And one of the best things when Anna and I, you know, we started this business together during COVID, like literally almost exactly at the exact same time. And in the beginning, business was really great, because businesses were embracing a slower pace, and they were ready to work on their branding and marketing, until it took a little too long. And it lasted a little too long, right? And so then not our branding and marketing, oh, yes, sorry, not our work. That’s a good COVID Not our work wasn’t taking too long, the whole world was taking too long to figure out COVID. Good point. And so we thought to ourselves, okay, we can either sit in it and be mad, or we can do something about it. And so one of the things we’re super passionate about is bringing marketing and branding to the masses and educating on it and making it not this big, scary black box, but helping anyone out there that wants to learn how to do it better, how to do it better. And so we talked about a lot of different things. And we came to the podcast, and we thought, you know, we can’t be in front of people speaking on stage right now, we can’t interact with groups the way we typically would in run sessions. So what can we do? Well, we can sit together and make this podcast. And that was really our starting point. And so then when we came out, and everything turned back on, and people were ready to get started again, this was a great way for us to sell new business, and it’s become just that ongoing machine. So we’re still able to do what we’re passionate about what she has to teach and inform and help people understand. And on the other side, it really drastically helped our business really get moving faster than we ever could have thought because we had these episodes to share with people to say here, you don’t want to just take my word for it out of the few sentences and five minutes, we’ve known each other go listen to this library of work and decide if we’re who you want, and then come back to us. And so I think it’s just indicative of this whole idea that change is going to happen. And if you’re willing to work through it, and just acknowledge it, it’s a whole lot better than being the woe is me, or why did this happen? Or I’m a bad person, or I must deserve this or whatever. No, it’s just a way of life. And therefore you just have to get on board with it and deal with it.

Ryane LeCesne 43:42
Yeah, I think that that’s really, really, really important. There’s that great book, Who Moved My Cheese? Which is all about, you know, that shifting of change. And it really recognizing that. I think that the self awareness, that change is constant is really, really, really important. And almost like reminding ourselves, that change is so important because that change is constant is so important, because we’ve talked about comfort zone earlier. How do we know when we’re comfortable? You know, it’s sort of like an elusive experience. How do we don’t know that things are changing until boom, they’ve changed? Oh my gosh, now what am I supposed to do? It’s like almost a forced reactionary experience. So reminding ourselves Oh, right. Things are supposed to change. This is dynamic. Right? Right. level set self. Okay. That I think level one is really, really important to tap into. I think also what’s important to tap into which both of you did collectively was leaning in on your core values during change, especially, right, who am I and collectively it was Who are you as a unit, but it was it was, you know, who am I? What is my value? Because so often when change happens, what’s rattled is the questioning of our value, which then becomes I’m not a good person, right? Like, I lost my job, I must not be valuable. Therefore I’m less worthy, right? And yet it was it was an organizational change had nothing to do with you changes happening, right. So what to do in the midst of that, oh, actually my core value, my value hasn’t changed, who I am hasn’t changed my worth hasn’t changed my, my brilliance, my genius, my ownership of my knowledge, who I am my everything that makes me me, that hasn’t changed. And let me rather than focus on external change as my barometer for or indicator for comfort or wellness or status quo, I’m going to really look inward. And this is where coaches are so helpful to do this processing that we help people do. And then of looking inward and saying, Who am I? What are my core values? And that’s what you two, did you looked inward and say, Who are we what do we want to do change is happening out there? And yeah, we’ve we’ve got to move with it. Because it’s an amoeba that moves we can’t stay behind. And yet, if you’ve looked out there for change, for the indicators of what your change should have been, you would have made very different decisions, it probably would not have been a podcast or not one that at least felt as good as this one does for you. Because this came from the inside out. Right? It came from who you are. And yet, change wasn’t really what created the podcast. Do you know what I mean? It was like change was like the impetus. But you looked inward versus like, oh, well, the change out there is everyone’s going? I don’t know, you know, everyone’s shutting down their business, maybe we should shut down to that’s the change that’s happening. Maybe you know what I mean? Like you didn’t use it, look at that you looked really inward, the change was an indicator to look, who were we, which is what I’m espousing for people to do. Look, inward change is always happening. Who are you really figure out? Who are you? What are your core values, because those things aren’t going to change. And in the midst of change, learn to lean in on those things, as your anchor to whether the change and as an outcome of that you will have ridden the ride of change, you would you will have as you all demonstrated, ride the wave where you and change are co creating together versus resisting it. But it’s a very inward look, I would I would help people really think about that. Yeah,

Anne Candido 47:45
and I think the change piece too, is such a dramatic environmental thing or shift that does happen that kind of sends people off kilter. And I think it’s really housed in the fact that people just don’t want to be wrong, or things that they profess that they knew or understood or were quote unquote, experts in, not now it’s changed, then all of a sudden, you can feel like you’re just off footing. Right. And so the thing here that I think it’s really, really important, just to build on what you guys said, and I think it’s twofold. One is the ability to be a little bit flexible and adaptable. And the only way you can be flexible adaptable, is by actually listening and listening and studying the world around you, especially the people within the world around you. When we kind of get back up to one of the the broad points and you had said you kind of need to call it a a brilliant group. Is that what you call it? Ryan?

Ryane LeCesne 48:39
Oh, yes, your brilliance team, your brilliance team.

Anne Candido 48:42
But the key to really managing through a lot of this uncertainty and all this change, it kind of tends to throw you back on your heels, is by understanding how the people around you’re going to behave and how do you act accordingly? Not necessarily based on what you know, but and how you’re going to be with people. And that sounds very nebulous, and it sounds very esoteric, but really, we’re, if you’re going to, quote unquote, be found out, it’s usually in the way that you behave and act and not in the way that you want and what you know. So it’s more of that kind of style of hey, I thought that person was a collaborator, I thought this person was, could think on their feet. Like it’s more of those things. I think sometimes that that people see inconsistencies with that then strikes you as your personal self as being an imposter versus like, Oh, I didn’t know that certain thing or I didn’t know that certain thing. So this is this is a lot of really hard point to kind of wrap your mind around. But I think the core of it is that if you can understand if you’re really listening to the way that people act and behave in your group, if you really know what their strengths and weaknesses are. If you really know how they manage and manage to change you can manage to change accordingly and it doesn’t need to be such a big Big scary thing around the fact that Oh, everything that I didn’t know, I don’t know any more. So therefore, what am I doing here? So that’s a little harder, I think, to probably internalize. So hopefully, that wasn’t a total mess. No, I think you’re so good. Okay. Because I could continue to talk, but you probably don’t want me to.

April Martini 50:22
Alright, well, we’ll stop on that point. We’ve talked about tons and tons of things today. And hopefully, you’ve heard between the three of us just the different ways the different tools and different perspectives, how to get out of your own head, how to identify when impostor syndrome is taking hold, and what to go and do about it. But with our next segment, we typically talk about a brand or a business that is using or not using their marketing smarts, when we have a guest, we turn it over to the guest, and we let them kind of bring us home make any final points. Ryane, I would love for you to tell people where they can find you and just kind of put the exclamation point on what we talked about today.

Ryane LeCesne 51:00
I think in terms of, you know, what I want to leave the audience with, and talk about wrapping up this idea of imposter syndrome. Wrapping up the idea of that trifecta of really killing confidence, perfectionism is so tied to imposter syndrome. And that idea of distraction isn’t just really feeling like one can’t quite manage all of all of the things that they would like to one of the things that really stands out to me today is, is that mindset piece is this ability to really think about moving from a fixed mindset where something, you know, it has to be this way, I’m wedded to my story. And we know that when we hear ourselves, say, like, I should, I should be doing this, I need to do this. I’ve got to figure it out. I’m behind, right like that we Those are strong indicators of like something is out of alignment. And that we’re really focused on fear versus focused on faith, right, focused on like, I can do this. And shifting from that to this growth mindset. Really, I can do it. I’ve got what it takes that at 20. I love that as a way to really pull ourselves out of perfectionism, impostor syndrome, really asking ourselves, Am I Am I comfortable? Or is this growth? You know, just really checking in with ourselves, I think is so so critically important. And definitely, you know, highlights that I’m taking away from this conversation. Awesome,

April Martini 52:35
and tell people where they can find you.

Ryane LeCesne 52:36
Yeah, thank you. So you can find me at my website, On that website, you can find a quiz that I have, which is a free quiz that talks about those three mindsets. And they also offer a free discovery call if someone’s interested in just finding out more about where they are and how you know, the kind of coaching that I can do can support them.

April Martini 53:01
Great, well, we so appreciate you being here, Ryane. And just real quick, we want to recap the four tips for combating impostor syndrome. Number one, embrace the ad for the 20 rule, which is Ryan’s favorite today. Everything does not have to be nor can it be perfect all the time. If this can become your mantra, it will help you combat that imposter syndrome. Number two, be brave enough to step outside the box, do something that takes you out of your day to day and then do the next thing and then the next thing and just stay on that track. Number three become a lifelong learner, the more we know and the more tools we have in our toolkit, the better equipped we become to step up against impostor syndrome and believe we are capable. And finally number four get in front of managing change. It is inevitable and it is not always easy. But the quicker we move into that management mode, the easier it becomes to make progress. And with that, we will say go and exercise your Marketing Smarts!

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