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Classics: How to Successfully Transition from a Doer to a Manager: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Feb 13, 2024

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

In this episode, we’re talking how to transition from a doer to a manager. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Marketing Smarts: Classics: How to Successfully Transition from a Doer to a Manager

So you’ve landed a new role as a manager vs. the doer. Congratulations! Now what? How do you transition from one role to another without abandoning your responsibilities? How can you manage the transition without micromanaging? How do you define your new role? How do you get it all done successfully? We give you the tools you need to move into your new role while leaving your previous responsibilities in good hands. This episode covers everything from management to micromanagement. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How do you transition from doer to manager?
  • What are some of the biggest mistakes people make as new managers?
  • How long should it take to transition from doer to manager?
  • What makes a good manager?
  • How do you learn to be an effective manager?
  • What advice is there for new managers?
  • How do you plan the transition?
  • What do you need to stop doing?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at:

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

  • Classics: How to Successfully Transition from a Doer to a Manager
    • [0:00] Welcome to Marketing Smarts
    • [0:32] Anne Candido, April Martini
    • [0:34] How do you transition from doer to manager?
    • [0:48] We’d like to invite you to join ForthRight Women: The Cohort. This community is for females who are ambitious in their careers, but want an equally fulfilling personal life. For more information and to join the group, check out
    • [1:50] Plan the transition, and then transition
    • [5:35] HR (Human Resources)
    • [9:59] Redefine your new role
    • [13:35] Job Description
    • [14:48] Establish team culture
    • [19:07] P&G (Procter & Gamble)
    • [21:38] Stop doing the doing
    • [26:28] Recap: How do you transition from doer to manager?
    • [27:05] We’d like to invite you to join ForthRight Women: The Cohort. This community is for females who are ambitious in their careers, but want an equally fulfilling personal life. For more information and to join the group, check out
    • “In the Trenches”
    • [27:51] What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people make as new managers?
    • [32:20] How long should it take to transition from doer to manager?
    • [36:21] What makes a good manager?
    • [38:12] Vigilant Leadership
    • [40:02] SEO (Search Engine Optimization)
    • [40:50] How did you learn to be an effective manager?
    • [44:40] Micromanaging
    • [52:38] What advice would you give to new managers?
    • Marketing Smarts Moments

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 


Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:02
This is Marketing Smarts – a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader, no matter your level. In each episode, we will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We will also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. And if you missed anything, don’t worry, we put worksheets on our website that summarize the key points. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to Marketing Smarts. I’m Anne Candido, and I am April martini, and today is another Marketing Smarts Classics: how to successfully transition from a doer to a manager. We just launched ForthRight Women: The Cohort, which you can check out at This is a topic we talk a lot with our rising female leaders, this can be a really hard transition for many who get their value and feel productive from the doing. But there is a way to ease this transition. We cover it all in this episode. So let’s get to it. Now,

April Martini 1:00
this is a very exciting moment in one’s career as you make the progression and finally have people that work for you on your team. However, it can be a really tough point in one’s career too, because you haven’t done it before. And just like anything that’s new, you have to learn how to do it, and then how to do it. Well. Yeah.

Anne Candido 1:17
And there’s always common troubles that can plague people and making this transition successful like relinquishing control the work itself, or finding new, I’ll be more ambiguous ways to feel accomplished, or resisting the urge to jump in when there’s trouble versus enabling your team. Now, that sounds like us, okay? It was us too. So don’t worry. That’s why we’re doing this episode.

April Martini 1:41
Yeah, exactly. You’re not alone in it. And with that, we will get into how to successfully transition from a doer to a manager. Number one, plan the transition, and then transition. When you become a manager, I know this is shocking. But you don’t suddenly snap your fingers and jump into the new role and just leave the old one behind. Somebody has to pick up your old role, you have to assist in that transition. In the very best cases, there’s someone or some people to take this over already in place in the organization. And other situations, you have to hire for the role you’re leaving. And then still, in other cases, sometimes there is no plan to backfill and you’re left to do both, while potentially taking on a team of your own employees at the same time as doing the job you were doing in the first place. So trying to grow trying to do two jobs at once, it can be a totally messy situation. So therefore, that is why this is our first point. And that is why we are saying plan the transition and then actually make the transition. It’s important because you’ve heard us say it before, no one’s gonna manage your career for you. And this is one of those critical moments for you to take control. And to figure out what’s best for you ask for it, and then make it happen. So how do you build this plan? First of all, you need to make a comprehensive list of all the things that are currently on your plate, it doesn’t matter if you are the best communicator in the entire world, there is no way that there is any other single person in the organization that knows the full list of what you do, it is just not possible. So again, if we go back to that point of having to inherit this cert, the new job and keep the old one, this can be a really compelling reason not to have that happen. The second is to get a job description for what’s going to be on your plate now that you’re this new manager. And this can help you take that list that you’ve just made. And then also look at the new responsibilities and very objectively state and prove why you can’t possibly do both things at once. Or also to be able to ask for the right people or figure out creative ways to get the other stuff done across people in the organization. If you proactively take this approach, you’re a lot more likely to have it go smoothly and the way that would work best for you. And then list the things from the initial list of items that you know you can hand off quickly and readily right now. And that you’ve seen maybe in the organization happened before what you would again best recommend those things that probably you did when you first joined the role, for example, or the company or the easiest things for somebody else to grasp and jump on board with because that will kickstart the transition plan and help you start to offload while you’re building the plan and making it happen. And then when you ask for those resources that you need shoot for the stars. So what I always like to say here, ask for everything you could possibly think might help you be really great at this role, knowing full well that you probably will not get all of those things because these situations are all about compromise. But figure out okay if I asked for this very best case scenario, and I know that I’m going to have to give on certain things. What are those certain things going to be, so that you can get to a place that puts you again in the best spot to move on. And also to have the right level of support that you need. Even if you’re going to have to, for example, train a new person or hire a new person, or whatever that ends up looking like, ask for what you know that perfect scenario is, don’t leave your boss out of the equation, don’t leave your old boss out of the equation, don’t leave the new boss out of the equation, and any other stakeholders that you feel like are relevant to your transition. So for example, in agency, we were really great at leaving HR completely out of these processes and trying to manage them on our own, which was just dumb. And then of course, you can imagine all the things that come to light, he said, she said, You know, I went off and did this, well, that’s against our policy, you can’t just hire someone on your own all of these different types of situations arose. So think about who else can, while should be involved, and then also, who else can help you. So I had a coaching instance, recently where someone wanted to take another team member 50% of their time for her team, and she had the availability, but of course, having that relationship with the other manager and making sure to go to that person first and make sure that that could be ironed out all of that kind of stuff, really made that a friendlier transition, if you will, and got the person the help that they needed, without offending the other person and also respecting them in the process. So think about again, all what is what you’re getting the ball rolling, right, what is going to happen as a result of the requests that you are making, who can help you who can be a champion for you, as long as you do the right thing. Those are all the people that you want to be part of this plan. We talk oftentimes about getting a signature, and how often people fail to do this, sign off with all the relevant parties, share it with HR, again, don’t leave them out of the process, and make it official. And then outside of that, hold yourself accountable. And also hold the rest of the folks accountable, make sure that you’re delivering on your end, but then you’re also holding people’s feet to the fire on their end. You want to make sure that you’re making progress, but also that you’re not being hindered. Because other people are saying that’s not their top priority etc, etc. And so therefore, the reason for the plan, and then the reason to go and do the plan. Yeah,

Anne Candido 7:21
I, I love this one. And I chuckled at the very beginning of it when you said you actually have to transition? Because it seems to be a sticking point. Yeah, totally. I mean, when everybody does all this, and they set it up. And there’s a lot of reasons why because you are correct. And this happens more times than not where you don’t have the right backfill in place before you can move on. But that period of time should actually be very temporary. And you need to redefine, and we’re gonna talk about this in a second, how do you think about those two roles, and make sure that you are not the problem? Absolutely. And the reason that we see most people becoming the problem is a control thing. They don’t like to leave behind or something else that they were actually really good at, and go into this unknown space. And we’re going to talk about this in a second, but just a prelude a little bit. And they become the problem where they can’t let go, in order to move forward. So make sure you’re not the problem. But I also liked what you were saying too, about being resourceful, it’s gonna require you to be extremely resourceful, and in some cases, to be able to enable you to get the work done in a way that’s conducive to both sides. Now, you also have to be very clear that once you are transitioning, your priority should be on your new role. So then you might have to refigure how the current role looks, which means that people are gonna have to take like you said, more of the maybe the work that you were doing, or you have to expand somebody’s role, or like you say, you have to be resourceful on bringing somebody in temporarily in order to get that work done. Do not try to split yourself. It’s a disaster waiting to happen. And back to my original point, don’t be the problem.

April Martini 9:04
Well, and I think, first of all, that’s a great point of don’t be the problem yourself. And you know, you could totally let your ego get in the way of all of that all of these things, I feel better, because I’m comfortable here, all of that kind of stuff. But also, I think the other piece about this is people shoot themselves in the foot, because they try to go ahead and do it all on their own, and then they fail on both sides. And then that becomes a mess to undo. And

Anne Candido 9:29
DS in a bigger mess is if you’re getting promoted and the backfill is what your original position was. And that person that person now reports into you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So don’t kill the new person coming in, because they’re not doing it the way you would do it or you have expectations because you just came from that role. That is the biggest recipe for disaster too. You have to let go. A bit of how you were in that role to create space for somebody else to be in that role. Yep,

April Martini 9:56
absolutely. I’ll let you take this one. Number two is redefine your new role.

Anne Candido 10:01
Yes, and we did preempt it a little bit. And I wanted to bring out the point that the higher you move, the more ambiguous it gets. Absolutely right. And a lot of people, especially moving from a doer to a manager, really struggle with the fact that it isn’t as defined as they have had in the past, or that they would like it to be. And that’s actually a really big signal about whether or not a you’re ready to be a manager or to if you should be a manager to begin with, if you cannot handle the ambiguity of Oh, so now I have to kind of like, figure out what this role looks like, then you really, really need to rethink whether or not you’re set up for success in that position. But that all being said, let’s say that you have now defined your transition plan, you’re now moving into your transition plan, transitioning the transition plan, transition plan, what next? And what next is really starting to define how this new role is going to look for you. Right? So what are your overall goals and objectives for this role? And for your team? As a result? How will you know if you’re successful, this is a very big one, because like I said, it’s gonna be very much more ambiguous, is that right? Much more ambiguous, whatever, more ambiguous, okay, thank you. So it’s gonna have a lot of that like, not feeling like you’re like tangibly being able to check stuff off and feeling like you’ve accomplished something today. So you have to really dictate into yourself and declare to yourself, what does success look like? And then you think about what your day to day is going to look like, it’s gonna look very, very different, you have to accept and you have to embrace it, and you’re gonna have to really look at what your, your day to day looks like in the context of this, this new rule. And then also, you’re gonna have to figure out what role your team is going to play, because it’s going to be very different, like we said, You’re gonna have to let go of things, you’re not gonna be able to be in control of everything. Now, the biggest thing that you don’t want to do is that you don’t want to revert back because it’s comfortable. So make sure as you’re setting up this new role for yourself, you’re really paying attention to how you’re going to show up, and what that’s going to mean for the team around you. So what meetings while you attend, you’re not going to be able to attend all the meetings, it’s just not going to happen. You need others to attend the meetings for you, which ones are you going to lead, because you can’t lead all the meetings, you know, you’re going to have to defer some of that leadership, which is interesting as you as a manager, but you’re gonna have to defer some of that leadership because you’re gonna have to concentrate on bigger things,

April Martini 12:28
status calls, were always the one that people didn’t want to let go because they wanted that control. And it was like, that should be the first thing off your plate. Because you’re right, the new person should be leading that in their job as Doer was always one of those ones.

Anne Candido 12:41
Yeah, I totally agree with that one. And within that, you need to really set expectations for your team about what your leadership style is going to look like. And preach vigilant leadership may not be exactly where you want to start as a new manager. But you also don’t want to be the micromanager. Like, I don’t know what I don’t know. So I’m going to be in my hands and everything. And I’m just learning. It’s just it’s very frustrating for the people that work for you. And it’s really debilitating for them. So make sure that you’re really being honest with yourself set time to take a kind of an assessment of how things are going, ask your team, how it’s going. So that you can be really, really aware of how you are defining this role. And and how you define this role is working for your team in general. Yeah,

April Martini 13:25
and I would say, we talked about asking for the job description for the role. That’s only the starting place. Because to Anne’s point, especially as you move up and things become more nebulous, and you don’t have like a you must do these 100 things this quarter anymore, you have to be able to take that job description and interpret it in a way that you can deliver against it while developing your own style, and letting go of the doing all kinds of at the same time. And so that is something that really you have to be able to do. And it’s not that you won’t have people you can ask for advice. Again, your team is really good for that if you establish this, I want to lead and then have them help hold you accountable to that. It’s not a lonely place to be if you ask for the right right inputs and help from other people. But you have to be willing to step into that. And I think Anne’s previous point about making sure that you really want to do this is a really good one. Because if you get stuck here, that’s a timeout moment to think about that. Because this this moment is indicative of all of the types of work that are going to come and it’s only going to become more nebulous over time. And so if you feel like Yeah, I’m ready to tackle it, but I need some assistance. That’s totally cool. If it’s I’m experiencing paralysis, and I just want to crawl back to my other job. That’s a different situation. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Number three, establish team culture. So before we jump into this one, we do have a digital coaching module on our shop page of our website. So it’s A very extensive tool, I will obviously touch on some things here. But if you need a process and you feel like you really need some strong guidance and our perspective on that, that is there for you. So please visit that page and purchase that if you have the need. But some things I will talk about here. First is when you think about your team culture, you do have to figure out what that looks like beyond just what are people going to do in their roles? And what are you as a leader going to instill in the team and yes, there are things like, all right, you will not run the status sheet, for example, you will get all the updates, you will deliver that to the team. Those are more tactical things that you’re having people on your team do. But you also want to as the leader and the manager, establish the types of communications you will have, for example. So being open and honest to feedback, being honest, that you’re a first time manager, they know this spoiler alert, you work with them in the organization, they know you’ve just been promoted, be honest, figure it out together, all of these things are important. But then also remember that as the manager, you have to be the final decision maker. And so once you enlist their help, or you do a draft and you share it, whatever it is, you need to establish things like how you’re going to communicate as a team, what the roles are the expectations for each role, how you’re going to work together, and what is and what is not appropriate for the team. It is great if the company has a really strong culture, and you can take cues from that. But we will say you still have to customize associated with that. Because every team is different. Every team dynamic is different, every person on the team is different. So if you do have a lot of inspiration from there, make sure that you are individualizing it enough that it works for your team. There are also situations where unfortunately, the culture isn’t very strong within organizations. And that actually shouldn’t be discouraging, that should be an opportunity for you to create something that hopefully over time can be a better model for the organization. But at least where you can build something that the people on your team feel compelled to follow, feel inspired to come to work each day feel inspired to work for you as their leader, all of those types of things. And so you define that you establish it, you put the stake in the ground, and then you lead by example. And one of the very major things we will say about this one here is you must have your team’s back. So as the manager, you have now inherited the role of being responsible for all the work that happens on that team. So it’s important to get this right on the front end and make sure everybody has their marching orders. But on the other side, mistakes are gonna happen. New people are learning new roles, not just you, you have all these pieces in parts. And you know, humans are human. And so you have to make sure that your team understands that they have the autonomy to deliver on what your expectations are. But if that mistakes are made, they need to one let you know immediately, and to know that you’re going to have their back so that they feel like they actually are empowered to be effective in their jobs.

Anne Candido 18:11
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. Because being a manager means that you actually care about your people more than you care about yourself. Yep. And that’s a really hard place to be in, especially for somebody who is extremely ambitious, but they don’t need to be mutually exclusive. One way that I have always thought about this, and is the fact that my success is then defined by my team, not just me. So my team wins, I win. And that’s how I’ve always defined success. So that’s one way to kind of thinking about that in this context, because it’s going to be very tempting to throw your team underneath the bus, in order to save yourself, you cannot do that as a manager. And I also wanted to emphasize a point that the manager is in charge of the culture. I think a lot of times right now, and I had a very good happen a lot, you know, when I was in PNG, is that the manager would defer the culture to the people. And take Well, no, we’re all the cultures like, well, yes, you are all the culture, but somebody needs to define it. And the only person who can define it is the manager. Now, it can be done collaboratively with the voice of the people. And it can also be done in context of continually getting feedback from people, but it needs to be led by the manager. And that’s because the culture lives and dies with you. People are going to look to you in order to define how they should behave, how they should act. What I hate the most is when a manager is like, well, you know, I’m not really into the structure thing. Are we into something very casual and formal culture? Well, that is a choice. It’s not a default. Okay, you guys. So if you’re going to choose to have a very casual and formal culture, then fine, you’re going to have a very messy one as well. You want to deal with that, then by all means, do that, but I’m telling you 100% Without a doubt, your team needs structure. They crave structure, they need to know what their lane is they need to know what everybody else’s lane is. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t crossover, you know, and relays if you will. But like you have to be able to define this for people so they know what to expect. There, it’s clear, so that they can understand what their space is and how they’re operating with respect to everybody else, because everybody needs to be working together in order to achieve the overarching goal. And they can’t do that if you don’t establish the rules of engagement, which is the culture?

April Martini 20:30
Well, and I think it gets to so much inefficiency, right? Because I think you’re right, people think like, well, I’m, I’m easy, I’m laid back.

Anne Candido 20:37
And those are usually the people who are not easy and lead

April Martini 20:39
the way and then yeah, on the other side of that all the sudden, you don’t see the punch coming and it comes Oh, you get kicked down a few notches, because they’re so laid back. But in any case, I think the team wastes a lot of time, in that space of not really knowing and not being sure of what to do. And so I think from just a sheer productivity standpoint, it’s the wrong decision not to mention all those other things we said around wanting people to want to work for you with you be inspired, all that kind of stuff. But you’re right. And if you don’t have that foundation, and it’s not firm, and very clear, that’s where people just kind of swirl and then not a lot happens.

Anne Candido 21:22
You’re totally right. totally right.

April Martini 21:24
All right, point number four, this one kind of goes into hand in hand with the first one, but I like this one a lot, stop doing the doing.

Anne Candido 21:32
So once you actually transition, you need to stop doing the doing. And this is really a very hard thing to do, it’s very easy to say very hard to do. Because the reason why you probably become a manager is because you’re really good at the doing. So leaving that behind is, is very like, it’s almost like cutting off a piece of you and kind of leaving it you know, you know behind it and carrying a security blanket. I know and it’s really, really hard. But you’ll never be able to elevate to a manager if you can’t stop the doing. And I’m not saying I’m we should probably make an appointment, you’re not doing anything tactical, sometimes you need to help your team, okay, we’re not saying you need to leave them alone and let them like flounder, if they’re having trouble. Sometimes it’s all hands on deck, and everybody needs to help out. But you’re being very intentional. And when you’re doing that you’re not doing it as a default. And one way that I’ve done this, and I know April does this too, because we’re very big post a note like to do list, you’re checking things off, because that makes us feel accomplished as you need to change the things that you’re putting on your poster. No. Yep. So for example, when somebody might have said before, like, you know, right my message track, right, so that would have been like a thing that I would have had, that was my doing thing your to do as a manager would be like, make sure and has everything she needs. So she can write a message track. Yep, write, still cross that off, you know, it’s still something that you’re doing. But it’s at a different level, is it more of an enabling level, and enabling in a good way, not enabling in a bad way, and, and making sure that your team has what they need from you in order to continue to facilitate the work. And within that is a very inherent truism, which is managers teach. So you need to take the time to teach, you can’t just dictate truisms and dictate like what people are need to go do without giving them the context for why they should do it. And giving them some insight and sharing your expertise as to how they could do well how how they could do it well and how to be successful at it. The worst thing you can do as a manager is try to preserve your expertise by like, not by not sharing it. And then just expecting that your team should be able to figure out because you’ve had to figure it out. Or be they need to go through the same trailblaze. A you did because you had to go through and do it all make it easier for your team so that you can focus on different things. And just realize is going to be uncomfortable for a little bit, it’s you’re going to feel like kind of stuck in the middle, it’s you’re going to be worried about doing the wrong thing on the manager side. And you’re going to be worried that the things that are being done on the to do side on the doer side is going to be like not done the way that you want it to be done. It’s going to feel very awkward for a little bit that is okay. Continue to go back to your transition plan. Continue to hold yourself accountable. Think about your role that you’re playing as you’re doing something because you’re doing it to make yourself feel better. You’re doing it in the benefit of the team in general. And then whatever you do, give yourself some grace. You know, a transitions take time transitions take a lot of energy, both physical, mental, spiritual, I mean, all of it, you know, so give yourself some grace in order to feel everything that you’re feeling as you’re going through it. And then absolutely, absolutely without it out, get a mentor, a coach, an advisor, somebody that’s going to be able to provide you that perspective. When you have those questions when you need somebody to kind of check you on something intimate to hold you accountable. It’s really, really critical in order to be successful. Yes,

April Martini 24:55
and the other thing I will say here is you’re never done becoming right are at managing. And so those people are so important. And those people change, honestly, over time as you continue to grow and do better and all those things. But again, the same way that you need to actually make the transition here, we talked about stop doing the doing, if you’re still in the middle of it all, you won’t elevate to this management position. But then you won’t go beyond that either. And so I think, and made the point about don’t cause pain for your team just for the sake of causing pain. And I think that’s a very real thing that unfortunately happens, people feel like, everyone has to go through the same thing I did. And there’s that way, honestly, you should be again, empowering your team and teaching them what they need to know. And teaching them by the pain that you had. And what I mean by that is, just because you had to go through it, you know how bad that felt you experienced it? So why would you want to put someone else through that challenge yourself to find a better way, and then teach through that lens, and help your team understand and of course, take ownership, learn the skill, all of those types of things. But make sure that in handing off the doing, you’re doing it in a way that is caring for your team? Yeah,

Anne Candido 26:16
I totally agree with that one. I mean, they’re going to be going through their own pain. Yep. There’s always going to be different pain, they don’t need to go through the same pain you’d went through. Yeah,

April Martini 26:24
exactly. So just to recap, the four points to how to successfully transition from a doer to a manager, plan the transition and then transition to often there’s no plan and this is where people get stuck doing both and never moving on. Number two, redefine your new role. Just like the transition plan, you have to be intentional in your new role to be successful, and you have to own it. Establish team culture, yes, take cues from the company culture, if there is a good one, or establish your own either way, do it with intention. And finally, stop doing the doing this is potentially the hardest part for a variety of reasons. But it’s necessary to succeed in your new role in any role beyond. Alright, so our next segment in the trenches is where we give real world examples specific to industries and situations but with broad application for anybody listening to digest and put them immediately into action. So number one, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see people make as new managers. And and and I kind of put this list together, but I’ll take this one. We love stuff like this, because it allows us to put all of our PTSD out there anyway. Number one is being power hungry or egomaniacs. And we laugh, but also, again, we’ve experienced this, it is exciting to become a manager, it is one of those moments in your career where you do feel like you’ve really made it and it is, you know, all of those things are wonderful and great. But it does not give you license to decide that you’re the most important person in the room or that everything you say goes or that the way you’ve been doing it as the only way to do it. Or that you need to be the loudest voice all of these very terrible behaviors that we have seen happen. You have to again, lead by what’s best for your team and support them. This does not support them. Talking down to the team are dictating behavior. I guess I kind of alluded to this one, but let’s speak really specifically about it. Just because you did it that way doesn’t mean it’s the only way. And if you try to make a bunch of mini use, you are going to fail. You have to let people find their own way to do the things they need to do and to create their own style. Leaving the team behind in the transition. And talked about knocking your team down before this is part of this or just leaving them in the dust and moving on to your new more important role. And not being there to support your team. We’ve seen that happen, faking it till they make it which this was Anne’s point, but this is one that I absolutely hate, or pretending that they know it all and not seeking out advice. You have to ask for help. You have not done this before. People already know that you haven’t done this before. So don’t pretend, find the right answers and do it through that lens with your own style won’t make any decisions for fear of making the wrong one and looking bad. This isn’t also a really good one, huh, inability to do anything at all because you’re afraid it’s gonna be the wrong thing. Don’t do that either. And then also, this person doesn’t elevate their professional behavior, meaning that they don’t move beyond the pier that they were before perhaps if they get elevated and it’s the same team, or they want to be friends with the younger people or the newer people or whatever on the team and they’re more worried about people liking them. That leads to things like participating in gossip or commiserating about the company. There’s a reason people say that it’s lonely at the top. The closer you get to the top, the lonelier it gets, because you can’t participate in all that stuff that goes on at the lowest levels. You have to rise above it and be a steward of the company. and make sure that yes, your people feel heard, but not that you’re participating and telling them it’s okay to continue to play into those conversations. Yeah, I

Anne Candido 30:09
think that’s a big one. Because even at that level, you still want to be liked. But I’ve seen the managers who put that as a top priority being the ones that actually failed the most miserably. Oh, for sure, um, because you need to be good. More than you need to be liked to be respected, that we’re going to get to in a second. But you don’t necessarily need to be liked to be a good manager. But, again, 1,000%, you need to be respected. And that’s really hard for people to get over because it does start feeling a little lonely, because these people that were your peers before now may report into you, and they’re not going to be sharing as much as they as they did. So your work environments can become very different, your social environment within work is going to become very different, you might have to make some new friends and new acquaintances. So that is something that you need to be aware of need to be prepared for. But I do remember the other one that made me laugh was what you were saying was like, I thought, as soon as I became a manager, like, Finally, people are gonna listen to me. Yeah, no, that doesn’t happen either. So if you’re waiting to for the fact to become a manager, just in anything by that status symbol that somehow people are going to start listening to, you know, you need to work on your influencing behavior, and likely, you’re not going to be promoted until you do anyway. So just to watch out there.

April Martini 31:24
Yeah, I think this one speaks to the fact that whatever you envision in your head, you can’t predict what’s actually going to look like this is to help you not do the things we’ve seen people do that are not good. But also just to know that it’s gonna take a while to actually get into the role. You don’t just snap your fingers and be awesome at being a manager. Right. All right, number two, you talked about the transition. But how long should that take? And,

Anne Candido 31:50
yeah, I think it to be really realistic about this, because not every situation is created equal. And it depends on a lot of things like we discussed in the transition plan. But the one thing that we stressed, and I’m going to stress here, again, that you need to be very clear on is that you can’t do both jobs equally well, yeah, you may need to do that, actually tactically for a short period of time, which means you’re going to invest a lot of hours, and being able to pull that off. But that is not a long term solution. Nor should it be so you need to really do your due diligence and making sure you set up that plan. And then also within that plan, you should be setting timing and deliverables for what those those milestones look like in the transition. And then again, that’s where April said in in your point is right on, you share that with everybody, everybody needs to be aligned and signed off on these are my transition timeline and my milestones, so that they can be held accountable for helping you be able to do that and be successful at it. So that is kind of the the ideal way of being with regards to your timing. Now, that doesn’t always happen that way. And if it’s not happening that way, and you’re finding yourself extremely stressed out, you’re finding yourself strongly frustrated, you’re seeing the work, slip, all those things that needs to be brought up immediately so that it can be rectified, because the only person who’s going to lose in that situation is you. So make sure that those conversations are had to really hard to have and make sure that they are had in really, you know, like I said before, it could take a little bit of time, it could take a lot of time, it depends on what’s there. But even if the transition itself from one move to the next is quick, the process for actually acclimating is going to take a while. So like we said, give yourself grace, and make sure that you’re you’re giving yourself the time to process, you don’t always get to enjoy indulge in that frankly and honestly. But you need to be patient with yourself patient with the people around you, and realize that everybody is in transition, it’s not just you. So that’s what I would say again, about that one. Yes.

April Martini 34:00
And I would just emphasize the point that make sure that you’re over communicating during this point in time versus under communicating, or even just the regular amount of communication you do because endpoints really right on about everyone’s transitioning at the same time. And I think the tendency is to want to make it look like you have your arms around all of it. But one person can’t do all of that. And so I think number one, if you show some vulnerability to the team, they’ll be more likely to show their own and get in front of things or tell you things or problems that are coming up before they look bad in quotes. But also it’ll create more of that we’re in it all together mentality and it’ll make things seem a lot less major when they do happen. If you’re having regular communication about how everything’s going, then people feel like oh, well, this is just the way we communicate. with each other, instead of you holding it close to the vest, so everybody else does so then something goes wrong. And then it’s all kind of on you as the manager.

Anne Candido 35:08
Yeah. And I think you made a very good point about the type of communication you want to have to is making sure the communication is active, not passive. Oh, yeah, so passive is does totally sucks, I can’t believe that they put me in this position. I mean, and that’s passive. Active is, this totally sucks. These are the three things I need in order to improve the situation. And this is by when I need them. And if I can get these, and I’m gonna, it’s gonna enable me to be able to do all this other stuff. Yep. So it’s still suck, but you have to have a different

April Martini 35:41
approach. Yeah, back to the point of not commiserating with your team. Don’t do that. All right, number three, what makes a good manager. And we’ve talked about some of this, we’ve talked around some of this, but I will very specifically drive home these points. Number one is listening to your team, but then maintaining that balance of the final say, or the decision maker. So let everyone have a voice. But you are, the voice when it comes to this is what’s going to happen. The second is finding your authentic style, we talked about faking it till you make it but it’s really worth putting this out there. I think that a lot of people mimic and then their style becomes really unnatural to who they are. And then they become those leaders that you don’t want to follow, because you’re not really sure who they are. This is more about taking the time to establish how you’re going to manage and why that’s important to you. And learning to consistently communicate in that way. So people know what to expect. admitting what you don’t know. Yes, this is important during the transition. But this is important for the rest of your life. As you get older, if you become a senior leader, you should be managing people that are actually better than you at a lot of different things. Because you can’t know everything about everything that the business does. And so the quicker that you get comfortable with admitting that you don’t know everything, the better that is going to work for you. In the long run again, you don’t magically get named manager, and then you know it all. And over time, you should know a lot less about a lot more things because you are overseeing more and more and more. So if it well, you don’t know find the right people to help you find those answers. always striving to be better. I mentioned this before, there is no end to learning to manage. Yes, you learn how to do it. But there are always nuances and mentioned vigilant leadership. That is the overall approach you should strive for. And that’s probably as you’re more senior in your managerial role, but even what that looks like so making sure you’re not in your workers business all the time, and giving them the space and empowering them. But having their backs all of those things are components of vigilant leadership. But the world changes all the time. We just saw this with COVID. Right? Even the best vigilant leader had to learn how to manage when their team was not physically there with them. So make sure that you are striving to be better that you are proactive in your approach that you’re making adjustments when needed. And know that those challenges are going to come up and face them head on instead of being like, well, this is the way I manage. And then finally, again, important worth noting, final time having the team’s back, let them know mistakes are fine. Let them know you do not want to be surprised by mistakes. That’s my little soapbox. But let them know that you’ll stand up for them when they happen. Because ultimately, you as the manager are the responsible party.

Anne Candido 38:34
Yeah, and I like what you said about the fact that you don’t necessarily know. But actually, you might know less about the work itself. But you do become an expert in how to get the work gets done. Oh, for sure. Right. So or though what I used to say all the time is like I didn’t know I don’t necessarily have all the good ideas by no good one when I hear it. And that comes from experience that comes from really understanding how work gets done. And then how work shows up impact that work generates all of those things that you know, a manager needs to be looking on as a bigger picture, the bigger picture as working on the business versus in the business. You can’t do that if you’re down in the weeds. Now, is it important to be able to appreciate like the work that people are doing? Yes. Like, I can look at SEO and go like, dang, that’s complicated. I don’t want anything to do with that. But I appreciate the person who’s gonna do it for me. Right. And so I respect that that is a really intense piece of work. And so I have to respect that when they come and tell me that you know, they have a problem. I’m like, Oh, well, then you must really have a problem. Yeah, exactly. So and you become a problem solver. I mean, that’s again, another one of those things that you have to focus on. So think about like what is the way that you’re going into enabled a team like what’s the expertise that you bring that allows you to be able to set that that that vision and then be able to really motivate your team to do good work and don’t It gets because you have to understand every single little piece of every single little thing that’s happening. Yeah, no, I

April Martini 40:06
think that’s a great point, that bigger picture is your responsibility. Yep. All right, number four, we’re both going to talk through this because our stories are alike, but different. How did you learn to be an effective manager? Obviously, we wrote this episode. So through all the things that we talked about here, both what to do and what not to do. But I will say that my management style really did come out of having a lot of really bad managers over the years, I agree with that one on my side, too, and a handful of really good ones. So I would say that the majority, three quarters, at least were just bad. And to our point about really identifying whether you’re cut out for it, really be honest with yourself there, it will save you a lot of heartache time, energy, and it will also save a lot of other people that are on the receiving end of your inability to manage my public service announcement for today. But I do think that I so many times in my career, was saying things like, Well, I don’t know much yet about management, but I’ll never do that. And that became really like a long list for me. And I never really like officially wrote down. But it was so ingrained in me that when I had to be a manager for the first time, and I had to really think about what my style was going to be, it was based off of those situations and what I never want it to be. Now on the other side of that, I will say to the point of it takes time, and it’s nuanced. And it’s not the same as being a doer of the work. And even if you’re really good at that doing of the work, it doesn’t qualify you to be an amazing manager, especially not right off the bat. There are a lot of mistakes that I made. That also kind of imprinted on me and made me now I wasn’t saying, I’m never going to do that. It’s it was I’m never going to do that again. Yeah. And so I’ll give you a couple of those. And then I’ll, you know, pass it over to and one thing, I think I was enabled as a manager way too early, I was put into a management position by a bad manager. And I had no business. I mean, I had barely been in the job three months. And it was an intern situation. But it was a major project. And it was me and then the intern that reported to me, I didn’t even know how to really do the work we were doing there, I definitely didn’t know how to do the work that was required of this person, or how much it was actually going to take to get it done. And we had very little oversight. And so I felt just really inept all the time, in that role, because I didn’t know what to do for him. And I didn’t even know what to do for myself. So then trying to make someone do it your way we are speaking from experience when we say do not do that, to the point that I made someone cry because I was being so flexible.

Anne Candido 43:04
It wasn’t me, but I’ve been close a couple of times.

April Martini 43:07
So I’ve learned from this one. Don’t tell my secrets. Anyway. Um, but I had someone report to me. And this was probably the right point for me to be a manager. But again, I wasn’t given a lot of good tools yet at this point in my career. And it was a high intense situation, I was managing so much work. And that was part of the reason that I was given this person. And I did a lot of the things we said not to do, I kind of let her hang herself a little bit with not a lot of instruction. And then when I fired back that it wasn’t done right. And then she tried again, it was still wrong. That’s where the tears came up. And so it was not that her way was wrong. Maybe it wasn’t with the urgency that was needed. But I probably didn’t communicate that. And so therefore it was bad situation all around micromanaging to death, doing both jobs at the same time guilty of that one as well. I will say that I inherited that person. And I will continue to hold that that was not the right person to report or be in that position. But even so I could have done a better job at at least using them for what they were good for in the role and not trying to do both jobs by myself. Failing to bring people along. I’ve talked about this on the show before I have a lot of PTSD associated with this. I did that too. You can’t be a leader

Anne Candido 44:29
if nobody’s following him. Yeah, if you turn around and you look at Nobodies, they’re not a manager. I was called Little Mussolini. Oh, um, yeah, wasn’t that

April Martini 44:38
that for me, but Well, yeah, I’m sure there were things I don’t know that I was called. So. And then finally, the last one is, is sharing too much. And I was on the receiving end of this and then I also made this mistake myself. I became notorious for saying if you do not want to hear the answer, do not ask me the question. And what that was really meant to represent was the mistake that I had, again, been on the receiving end before, but also had done myself, which is, it’s great to educate your employees to help them understand the bigger picture to let them be in the inner circle about how things work and why we do certain things this way, and that there’s more to it than what you see in the day to day, but this is your part, all of that stuff. It’s not okay to put your own frustrations or your own expectations, especially if you’re more senior than them on other people. And so I’ll give an example of I was tasked with giving a 30 minute presentation for the first time in my career. And it was in front of I mean, I was, I don’t know, 25 Maybe. And it was in front of an entire room full of people, I was responsible for helping to lead an entire day of work sessions. And I was like, you know, three to 3pm slot. And so my anxiety was through the roof. I was up practicing so late, I got to the point, the presentation went well, I got a lot of kudos, the session itself didn’t go over so well. And so my joy at doing my role really well fell to the side, because my boss got a lot of feedback that it wasn’t great, even though my part had been good. And so I still to this day wish that I hadn’t known that because it put a damper on presenting for a period of time, because it was tied to like the negativity of the entire situation, which I had no control or responsibility for. And then, you know, subsequently doing the same thing and trying to figure out as a young manager, what to share and what not to share those moments where you put something on them. And it’s like, Well, okay, great. I’m glad you shared with me that we’re in financial trouble, and we might need to do layoffs. That was one of the big ones don’t ever do that. But what am I supposed to do about that. And so then this, like cloud was over that person, because not even that they were not like it was said more in the context of like, you’re not on the chopping block. So don’t worry when you hear this stuff, but it had the opposite effect of like constant worry about that situation. So those are mine. Yeah, those

Anne Candido 47:12
are good ones. And obviously, I had a couple of my own. And I think you know, the last one you made to the the last example that you said is a good one, because it you can’t indulge in your own emotions. Again, in the context of the people that work for you, they’re not your peers anymore, right. So you have to maintain a level of decorum in order to shield your people from potential backlash or unneeded worry, or you know, any of those things. Even if your intentions are good, that doesn’t mean that you like hide everything from and so then they’re like to have the rug pulled out from underneath. But you need to really watch what you share how you share it. And then you have to also watch the feedback you give. And that was one of the ones that I learned how to become a effective manager was by really fine tuning how I gave feedback, as well as really keeping in mind that the whole goal was to have really healthy, happy and fulfilled team members that that felt like they were growing, they felt like they were appreciated. That doesn’t mean that I was on time that I didn’t like what they were doing. But what I would say in the next beat is like, okay, let’s figure out how to get you back on track. Yes, exactly. Right. So it wasn’t just like leaving it in their lap. Yeah. And you know, hanging them out to dry, so to speak, or just being like, God, I don’t have time for this, which I never had time for that right. But some of my most rewarding experiences, were being able to take low performers and being able to get them back into a state of grace within the company. Now, that doesn’t work for everybody. And not everybody deserves that. But for the ones that I felt did, it was worth that effort. And that’s really, your job as the manager is to enable your team when you feel good no matter which way it turns out. Because you did the right thing. You did the right thing, right. Yeah, you did. You did. You worked as what you could do in order to try to elevate those people, for sure. I talked about this one. But I took every opportunity I could to teach that was really important, especially coming from the PR and communication side, which not everybody understood. So just instead of just like dictating, you know, you should do this. And we should be treated like this. And you know, and this is management. Even outside my direct reports. This was management of my whole entire, like, cross functional team I was working on, it was explaining what the role was explaining how it was going to benefit the business in general. And then that created space for my people to be able to have easier conversations with the people that they were having at their levels because I’d already greased the skids, so to speak about making sure people understood what we were doing and why we were doing it and the importance of it and taking that time to teach so that they didn’t have to invest their time in doing that, and they could actually then do the work and they could do really good work. So I tried to take some of that burden off my people so that they could really showcase their their expertise. And and I said this before, but it’s worth mentioning again, is you have to wrap your own success around your team success is the only way I’m making this work. Otherwise, you’re gonna be in a constant battle of like, is it me? Is it them? Is it me? Is it them, but you have to realize as a manager, you’re the thing that you’re going to get recognized for most is if your team performs. If your team does well, you will never never win accolades. on your own. Once you become a manager, it just is impossible. So all those days of like, why I’d had a really stellar part of my piece of work, but these people kind of like didn’t. And so I still got recognized and made and like, no, that does not work anymore at that level. So you really have to wrap your success around that. And then you state that that’s what you want, then people to evaluate you upon. And then he, as you said, to you need to let people test and learn. You can’t overly dictate the how you do it, even if you’re 100% Sure, even if you’re short, and you just gotta let them fail. Sometimes you got to let them fail in a safe way. Yes, without being detrimental. If they if they if it’s gonna be detrimental, you need to step in that is your role as a manager, but sometimes, you know, I’m like, I was surprisingly, that was gonna work. That actually worked. It actually worked. And I And again, you don’t know it all? Yeah, you don’t know it all. And I impress my managers in the same way where I remember that was saying, like, I didn’t expect that to work. But that actually worked really well. So it’s like, I mean, have the same, like, you know, ability to let these people testify, because you just never know where it’s gonna come from now manage the risk that Sure, yeah, and manage them? Because like I said, the first thing is you need to be advocate for your people. But those were just a couple builds.

April Martini 51:49
No, I think that’s great. And our fifth and final in the trenches question, which I think will put a nice bow on this conversation. What advice would you give to new managers. And so I’m going to be pretty short and sweet here. One, remember, you’re working with people, which is why your job of managing is never done. Everyone is different. Everyone has different needs. Everyone has different personalities, everyone is carving out their own path. As the manager, you are responsible for supporting them in the best way possible. And as part of that, you need to decide if you get fulfillment out of managing people. This is different than being good at it. I mean, if you don’t like it, that’s fine. Yeah, if you don’t like it, it’s fine. It is there are other ways to get to where you want to be going, you will be happier in the long run. I have actually had one I can remember in particular was a very good manager, hated it. Did not personally get fulfilment, drove herself hard to be good for her people, all of that. But once she let go of that, she was on a totally different trajectory for personal happiness. So those are mine.

Anne Candido 53:01
Yep, students, we’re here to get a coach and mentor advisor. So number one thing, do not under please don’t believe that you can do it on your own. It’s just not possible. And then emphasizing the party. Do you have to establish a culture and you need to do that early? Because clarity and consistency leads to trust, and trust leads to respect, even if they don’t like you? Uh huh. That’s not important. They, but they must respect you. And they can only respect you if they trust you. Yep. All right. There’s plenty of managers that I didn’t really like. But I was like, Damn good manager. With that, the final one, then is integrity. Right? So this is say what you mean me what you say and do it on a consistent basis, is the utmost importance, and you have to practice it. And it’s probably gonna be one of the hardest things you have to do. Because you’re going to be tempted to self Preserve. And you can’t, you can’t do that. So those are my three.

April Martini 53:57
Absolutely. All right, in our third and final segment, generally, this has historically been a real-world example of a brand doing things well or not so well. But we’re finding in this case is one of them that this isn’t working as well, since we’ve shipped shifted our format to include broader marketing leadership topics. So we’re going to expand this to a business or person that we have recently experienced using or not using their marketing smarts overall, may not have anything to do with the topic. This one really doesn’t. At all, spoiler alert, but we’re calling this marketing smarts moments. So we love to hear what you have to say about this revision if you have feedback. But in the meantime, the timely example for me is, you know, we just went through Thanksgiving. And around the Thanksgiving table. There’s always nostalgic moments, right? So we got on this tangent of what were the best fast food restaurants and then quickly realized that nostalgia was tied a lot to everyone’s favorite. And so my two sisters said Arby’s, and I was like, that’s disgusting, disgusting. And then that’s how we got to that this one of them doesn’t even eat meat anymore. Anyway, this, which I don’t know if you can call that meat, but whatever. I digress. So we started talking about this. And the point I want to make here is the experiences that we had of those restaurants as kids 2030 years ago, it was actually specific to a specific experience. And so when I think about the Arby’s example, right, they just had roast beef sandwiches, which I hated, because I never liked the place, right, but it was roast beef, or it was a beef and cheddar or whatever. And they stayed in their lane, and they had a few sides, like fries or potatoes or whatever. But that was their main thing. Now they have everything, everything, you know that you could ever think of White Castle, same thing, we have white castles every Thanksgiving, so only time of year that I actually eat them and enjoy them. Anyway, they used to just be the little burger, though, you know, the classroom, the one slider that they had, now you get a crave case, and there’s like all these different cheeses, some have jalapenos, like it’s not the traditional experience. And a lot of these restaurants I think are doing themselves a big disservice when it comes to the marketing smarts perspective, because they’re diluting their intended experience and their fans. And they’re also not doing as good a job on the food. And so another fast food movement, road trip, we get McDonald’s right? So we stopped at McDonald’s another one where my mom piped in on this part of like, they used to have cheeseburgers and fries and milkshakes and whatever handful of things. We waited 35 minutes for it. Oh my gosh, because the menu is so huge. And the workforce is not what it needs to be, quite honestly, that producing the sheer amount of menu items has completely gotten in the way of the experience. So this is another public service announcement. I feel like restaurants need to shrink their menus, if only for people like me that can’t decide. But really, I think the point here is that restaurants are a really good example of brands that used to actually stay in their lane. Do the things they were good at, provide a particular experience. It might not be for everyone, but they knew who their targets were and they serve them. And now it’s a me too. This person comes out with a chicken sandwich. Now I have a chicken sandwich these people have on your earrings. Now I have onion rings, and the experience becomes who has the shortest line. Instead of Who do I actually want food from? And in some cases, the food is getting worse, because there’s so many options. Yeah. Can

Anne Candido 57:39
you remember back to when McDonald’s and Wendy’s had the Burger Wars? Yes. Yes. I mean, now was a huge campaign, you know, or the where’s the beef campaign? Yeah. I mean, those were iconic campaigns that to this day, still defined like McDonald’s versus Wendy’s. Absolutely. But you’re totally like the Whopper, the Whopper? Yeah. Burger King. Yeah, I mean that. And that’s, that’s actually a really interesting point that the proliferation now of options has gotten to the point where it’s very unwieldy when it comes to being able to one to kind of like, have it all there. And you have the very, you know, a workforce that you are intending to come in, which is like, you know, people who are high schoolers, if you will, who requires simplicity. Yep, they can do a few things and do a few things. Well, you know, in that case, it can’t, not enough workers overall, if and workers overall in general. And you know, that, that starts diminishing your returns. But I mean, we call it chasing the revenue, right? It’s like, you know, if somebody has it, I have to have it because I need to be able to compete, but it’s like, the proliferation of options now. Almost makes it impossible for people to make choices. I mean, how many times you been out to a restaurant, we’re like, God, the menu is so big, I can’t even decide what I want. Yep. But if I want a really good burger, I’m gonna go here. Yeah, if I want a really good steak, I’m gonna go here, you know. So those things need to be you know, able to pop out or even just like McDonald’s and just like, I just want to go get a Happy Meal. Like just being that whole like, feeling of the Happy Meal is like that feels like it’s totally been diminished to you know, and so it’s it’s very interesting. I think that’s a really, really good example.

April Martini 59:08
Well, an options within options. So you just said the happy meal. So it used to be whatever you picked fries, drink toy. Now it’s nuggets do you want for six? We have four different sauces. You want fries? Do you want extra fries? Or do you want yogurt? Now there’s like all the drink options or they can have juice? I’m like, I don’t know. Like, I’m the parent and I can’t even make a decision, I guess. Yeah. So anyway, that would be a what I think is lack of marketing smarts. I think this could be a moment in time for everyone to shrink what they offer go back to their brands, make sure that it makes sense, instead of just doing what everybody else is doing. Good point. So just to recap how to successfully transition from a doer to a manager, play on the transition, and then transition to often there’s no plan people get stuck doing both and never moving on. Redefining New role just like the transition plan, you have to be intentional in your new role to be successful and define it the way that will help you do the best job. Establish team culture. take cues from the company culture if they’re there or establish your own either way, make sure that you establish the culture early and stop doing the doing. Maybe this is the hardest part. We think so for a variety of reasons, but it is absolutely necessary to succeed in your new role and beyond. And with that, we will say, go and exercise your Marketing Smarts! Still need help in growing your Marketing Smarts? Contact us through our website: We can help you become a savvier marketer through coaching or training you and your team or doing the work on your behalf. Please also help us grow the podcast by rating and reviewing on your player of choice and sharing with at least one person. Now, go show off your Marketing Smarts!