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Classics: How to Translate Your Brand into a Physical Reality with Ron Novak, Drawing Dept: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Jun 03, 2025

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

In this Classics episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, we’re talking how to translate you brand into a physical reality with Ron Novak. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Strategic Counsel: Classics: How to Translate Your Brand into a Physical Reality with Ron Novak, Drawing Dept

When we say “brand,” we mean more than your logo, colors, and fonts. We’re talking about the experience you’re creating and how it’s going to connect emotionally with your client, customer, or consumer. This feels super tangible when you’re talking about products, but what about when you walk into an office building, a restaurant/bar/club, a condo complex, a retail store, an entertainment venue, and beyond? We wanted you to learn from the best of the best in bringing brand to life in physical form, so we welcomed on Ron Novak. Ron is a Foundering Partner and Principal at Drawing Dept, a full-service architectural firm that pursues a diverse range of work. This episode covers everything from architecture to branding. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How do you translate your brand into a physical reality?
  • What does branding mean in physical spaces?
  • How do you address form vs. function?
  • What’s a project Ron can walk us through?
  • How important are brand standards?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

What is Strategic Counsel?

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team and your business. Now let’s get to it. Welcome to the Strategic Counsel podcast.

00:31
I’m Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And as you know, we do sometimes we’re bringing back a previously recorded classic episode on a topic we believe is foundational to all of the work we do. And that is how to translate your brand into a physical reality with Ron Novak, founding partner and principal at Drawing Dept. You know by now that when we say brand, we’re talking about much more than your logo or your colors or your fonts or your photography treatments.

00:59
We’re talking about the connection you create emotionally with your client, customer, or consumer so that they know you authentically and understand what to expect from you. This is equally as important when you walk into an office building or a restaurant or a bar or a club or a condo complex or a retail store or an entertainment venue. The list goes on. With Ron as the expert in this space, we get into all the ways a brand needs to translate. So whether you’re listening to this episode for the first time or refreshing your memory, let’s get to it.

01:28
Thank you, Ron, for being with us. And would you like to introduce yourself and drawing department a little bit more? I appreciate the invitation. I can probably spend hours talking about why we do what we do. So I love this format and sort of the honesty of it. So I’m Ron Novak. I’m an owner and architect designer for a company named Drawing Department that we founded about 18 years ago. And there’s about 20 of us that ebb and flow throughout the year.

01:55
to do what we do. We’ve since, guess in the last 18 years or so, we’ve accomplished about 1700 projects or so, which for a firm of 18 people is pretty rigorous, we’ll say. But they come in many different wrappers and many different forms, but most of them all have to do with some form of hospitality or inclusion of either a public format or a very specific clientele. So we do a lot of bars, restaurants, breweries, distilleries, hotels and stuff like

02:25
Yeah, I like to believe that we’re not a niche firm and that that’s what keeps us going. it’s been a wild ride and I look forward to the future. So thanks for having me today. I’m excited to talk about things. Yeah, this is going be a great conversation because for our listeners, even if you guys aren’t into business of building structures like Ron is, you’re always in the business of creating spaces conducive to doing business or living life. So that’s always a big part of what we deal with and that’s our personal residential buildings or houses.

02:53
or things that we’re creating within a business structure like conference rooms or convening spaces or any of those things. So you should be able to hear what Ron’s talking about in the conversation we’re gonna have here and use those insights in order to translate them into whatever spaces that you are talking about internally or externally. Like if you’re going to an industry event or if you’re putting on like what I used to do, PR events and those sorts of things, all of it kind of plays that the insights can definitely be translatable.

03:23
So with that, let’s jump into how to translate your brand into a physical reality. So Ron, because this is a little bit intangible, I think it would be really good if you could kind of just help set up some context first when we’re talking about brand and physical spaces. So when you’re thinking about this and how do you define it? Like what is it for you when you think about brand and physical spaces? There’s two sort of folds to it. There’s one that is what I’ll call the physical imprint and there’s one that is

03:53
sort of the brand imprint. often tell folks that how we start is we often need to talk about three different things. And then one of them is really the key is what makes you so damn special. What is your brand, right? So whatever it is we need to do you, we need to capture you. We don’t need to do what we’ve done for somebody else. We need to focus on you. We don’t need to focus on trend. I know that kind of has a…

04:20
A connotation that trend is good, but trend really isn’t good. you ask me, trend is just copying and rolling out with somebody else did for somebody. So there’s three sort of things that we always ask when we start. One is what makes you so damn special? One that is, what are you selling and when are you selling it? And then the other one is sort of what is the social component to it or the approachability of it. And I think those things lead to the fact that you can do.

04:50
You can have a successful brand and a physical success at the same time for the implementation of how does that brand or that design we’ll call it roll out into reality or into the real world, which is also changing, which we’ll talk about a little bit later. And how does that imprint on society at large? So I often say to folks like when they come to me and they tell me who they are, what they want to do, my response is normally, well, if you do what you say you’re going to do.

05:19
It won’t matter what we do because if you promote your brand or your essence, whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish, the actual design or creation of the physical product is exactly that. is a physical interpretation of what we need to do to make a memory and an imprint that will bolster that memory of your brand. So I often say like,

05:48
I don’t mean to put myself out of business, but if you do what you say you’re going to do, won’t matter what we do. What we do will make it become memorial or memorialize it for somebody so that they’re like, remember when we went here, or we went there, and it will become a remarkable situation that is centric or idiosyncratic enough and site-specific that that brand will then begin to evolve and take on a new language. So I think.

06:16
It’s unique to try to sit there and say, well, how do you translate a brand into a physical realm? think none of those things I talked about are sort of physical things that we start with. It’s sort of to who, why, and when. And then that allows us to begin to sort of start the psychological sort of roller coaster of kind of being more of an archeologist and a psychologist at the same time to figure out exactly what it is that makes them so special.

06:46
So hopefully that answers sort of some bits about how we start. I think it’s the syncopation between the brand and the physical implementation of both of those things that leads to a great design that builds those things. Yeah, I I love that because similarly over here, we have three questions also. Who are you? How are you different? And why should people want you? And it’s very similar to what you just said.

07:14
I think, know, Anne, when you set it up, I think people think about this in terms of color and logo and those types of physical things like you just said, Ron. And if you start there, you’re dead in the water. I felt a lot of this pressure and you said it can be any environment, right? We just built this house. And for me, it was, and it is so much more about the feeling and the experience I want people to have. But if you don’t start by answering those fundamental strategic questions, then you’re just picking out stuff.

07:43
And so you’re therefore not creating any sort of experience for anybody that anyone’s going to connect to at a deeper level. And I think that when you do that, instead of the really what can be the hard work at the beginning to answer these questions, people feel that in authenticity right when they walk in. I was going say, I think to your exact point, you used a word right there that I think is very important and critical, and that’s authenticity. So most folks will start a project, my peers even

08:13
employees that start at my office, they normally come into the door, bow and tighter than a $2 watch, I have to unpick their locks. Because they want to give a client a survey and say, fill this out, and then I’ll know everything that you need to do. And so they want to know like, well, how big does this have to be? And how many people do I have to put in here? And all this other stuff. And I’m like, it’s so much simpler and conversational if you just talk about, well, what do you want to do? And when do you want to do it? And why would you do it?

08:42
There’s no onus with that from an architectural or design standpoint. It’s just getting to know that person so that you can challenge them on what is truly important. That’s the beauty of what we get to do is it’s a lot of sort of just poking them in the ribs. Like, are you sure? Because what you told me was not that. And I love that aspect. And, you our schooling kind of sets you up to be able to believe that, hey, I can solve every problem if I just have all the metrics. Well, I…

09:11
firmly believe it has nothing to do with that. It’s deeper than that. It’s more ethereal and it’s floating around. You just got to find that target. I think that’s the most important thing about design is listening to that and sort of, I don’t know, nicely extracting it from folks to get them to open up and talk.

09:30
Yeah, and I like another one of the elements you were talking about, which was I think your second point or second question is like, what are you selling and when are you selling it? Which is a big question that we ask about brand two, because a lot of times people will get stuck in the physical nature of it because that’s what’s tangible or the service oriented nature of it. I sell and like whatever the case might be in your world or our world, I sell this widget or I sell the service or

09:58
You know, I sell a place to live, know, those sorts of things. But really, when you can tap into the emotional benefit of what you’re selling, what you are actually creating, that relationship you’re creating becomes so much more. Right? So it’s not just about the widget you’re selling. It’s like, well, how does the widget make somebody feel? How does it improve their life? What is it about it that creates that memorable moment like you said, which I think is the visceral reaction that, like you say, like that is syncratic.

10:25
like connection that you remember those things and they pop up when things get triggered or signaled to you. So those become, and they’re very rooted in the emotional response, not just the physical, tangible, functional response of, need this thing, so therefore here’s this thing. And we have a very transactional engagement around it, which I think brings us to a question of form versus function or beauty versus function or,

10:55
function versus aesthetic. So these like polar opposites of like having to have the function of whatever it is and then the beauty or the experience of how, of whatever it’s going to be and how it’s gonna make somebody feel. Could you speak a little bit more to that approach that you take in order to really tap into both of those things? Maybe cite some of examples of some of the work that you guys have done that really you think does a really fabulous job of that that people could go back and refer to. Cause I think this translates into a lot of things that people.

11:24
I have to address when it comes to business. mean, I would say that designing at large, you know, there’s a lot of good ideas out there. I would suggest that you could probably pin it and say, everything is a copy of something else. It’s just done a different way. Yeah. With a different treatment. And so that could be a fair statement. I think that when you say things like form, function, there’s a natural sort of tension between those two things.

11:54
That’s a good way to test things, right? Because you have opposites, you have an extreme in one way or the other, a left or a right. So I would tell you like how we start is it is sort of a scientific and an emotional audit of the project at large, some of which have sites that are very real, some that don’t, some that have budgets that are very real, some that don’t, some that have programs that are very real, some that don’t, and some that are just

12:23
wild-ass ideas that somebody needs to their arms around. So you can approach these things kind of using both sides of your brain. One that has to be, what are the constants and what are the variables and how do I change those variables into constants? What are the assets and what are the deficits from either a physical standpoint, a financial stack standpoint or a program standpoint? What’s been done in the past? What’s never been done?

12:53
What’s logical? What’s crazy? What have we never seen or we see it all the time? So, I mean, start with that sort of interrogation and audit of all those things, but it isn’t done by like, you know, I think most design firms probably make a go at it kind of how it historically always has been done. If you put your time in, you learn, you’re an apprentice, then you become the master and then that’s how it is.

13:22
Yeah. And so that person who just sort of outlasted everybody else, that’s the person that has all the good ideas, has seen everything in the world and they get to do all this. They’re pulling switches. And I think that’s completely preposterous to believe that that one person knows the way. So I think how we start is it’s we take this huge funnel and we start throwing everything into it. And it’s almost like I compared to like how a chef cooks.

13:51
They throw everything in the pot and then they start tasting it, tweaking it, taking those constants and making, or taking those variables, turning them into constants or figuring out, I do want that separation between sort of the extremes. Cause I want to deny something to then allow something else to happen. So for us, it’s sort of, we’ve got to scavenge and we’ve got to forage all this stuff and take it with us.

14:20
being good listeners, and then we want to issue the challenge, I guess, to solve it to as many people that care about it and can be present. So like in my office, we will design or shred a project with me and maybe two other people might go and listen to the client, tell us everything that they want to tell us. And then we might take it back to our office of 18, 20 people, whatever. And we might choose 12 people and say,

14:51
Everyone gets half a day, two days, or a week from now we want to see what everyone will do. Here’s everything we know. And sometimes that means we might have some side conversations at the water cooler. Sometimes we sit around a table and we just chat about things. Sometimes it’s very independent. Sometimes it happens in the shower for people, but the cream rises to the top at different rates. then inevitably we all come back and we’ll start cross-fertilizing each other’s ideas because

15:20
People have different experiences, different memories because of their age, where they grew up, what’s important to them. So I think that that’s how you get this giant funnel and you start to narrow it and converting things in and distilling what it is that client told you is important to them and really starting to challenge it to become a physical thing. How we start is we, you know, cause a lot of times we get, well,

15:48
How many breweries and bars can you guys freaking do without doing the same thing? How do you do them so differently? And so for us, it’s really about, it’s not about materials. It’s not about sticks and bricks. It is about those things that what makes you so game special. And because again, we can put them in a black box or a white tent. And if they do what they say they’re gonna do, it won’t matter what we do.

16:18
So we are completely free to go anywhere we want. We don’t have to do what we did for somebody else because it was successful and everyone walks in and goes, oh, it looks beautiful in here, it’s cool. We can totally go off the deep end with that if we just listen and collect as much as we can. So I would say it starts off always with trying to listen and collect as much baggage so that we can begin to throw things out of the pot.

16:46
That’s kind of a roundabout way that says, is our technique and how do you sort of start the process? far as, you know, is there anything that’s specific? would say we have no formulaic approach to how we start. You know, I’ve alluded to before, like most architects, they hand somebody a packet of questions, a questionnaire and say, answer this and then we’ll know everything about you. And it is a bit of a poker game, but I would say the number one thing that we do is listen, we listen, we listen.

17:16
It’s different for everybody as to how they’re going to share, but I would say probably about 15 years ago, um, with the advent of cell phones, shelter magazines, like dwell TV shows that were on HGTV that let people design their neighbor’s house or a room over a weekend for, you know, $5,000. And it looks fantastic from that far away. Those shows.

17:46
Those things changed. It changed the whole profession to the fact that everything is so attainable and instantly gratifiable that you now really have to pick if you’re going to be a sledgehammer or a scalpel when it comes to solving the problem. And so I can say like, you know, if we have to get from this side of the forest to this side of the forest, most folks can

18:15
Just look at it, say, well, we’ll just cut the forest down. We’ll go right across. But it takes somebody else to sit there and say, well, we’ll take down those two trees and we’ll all get there. So, I mean, I think because of the approachability or the availability of photos, recipes, literature, everything has changed. the master is sort of diluted now. And sort of the expose of everything is exactly that. Nothing is hidden any longer.

18:45
So that changed a lot of how restaurants are designed or bars are designed because everyone wants to have an experience now. They want to know where things came from. I would use the words like scratch over craft, things that are made, not produced. These are all things that changed our industry, which the building industry, I’ll just call it. It takes a hundred years to change that industry.

19:15
because great granddad taught granddad, teaches his son and it takes 50 years to move that along. And there’s nothing sexy about that, but how people make a grilled cheese has changed dramatically over the last 15 years. Like who has, if I said, what’s a bougie grilled cheese sandwich? Everyone knows what I’m talking about. Well, 15 years ago, if I said that, say, what the hell are you talking about? Exactly. It’s a crashed single.

19:45
So, mean, things have changed and therefore I think our clients are smarter, they’re more exposed, and therefore I think there’s no limits to anything any longer. And I think it’s very unique, we’re talking about sort of the physical aspects of design. I mean, we’re getting into things now where design is even, it’s intangible, like with digital design and things we’re doing, which we’re gonna talk about a little bit later as to what…

20:14
the future it holds. It’s really interesting to me that therefore I can’t sit there and say, this is how you start because it’s different. I would say, know, Cincinnati often host a party called dinner and block. That’s not about a space. That’s about a table. I guess it is about a plate. It’s about a table. That’s what I’m talking about. It’s a black box or a white tank. What we do around it is different. So I can’t sit there and say, well, this is how we would start to design other than it’s a

20:42
collection about the soul of that person and the materiality of it generally has to do with, well, what are they making and what is their appetite for the expose of what they’re selling? Because then that helps us figure out the detailing of it, which I think that’s where you get the richness of somebody’s client centric site specific, the asyncratic design deals with, well, how much tailoring does that person need? And you can often feel that when you meet somebody with

21:12
How many rings do they have on? Do they have earrings? Do they wear makeup? Are they put together? Do they have an overcoat, a shirt, and an undershirt? Because there’s a lot of veiling that happens with that. So you can sit there and you can look at design and be like, they’re going to hide things. They’re going to stack it up in front of me. I’m going have to take those things off to truly see their heart. So it’s kind of weird. I mean, you can see it on a person just simply by how they dress or how their appearance or stuff like that as to what they’re going to share.

21:38
Well, I mean, I think you’re getting at the crux of what we’re talking about today, which is the actual emotion behind all of this. And I love that it’s not, this is our process, this is the packet we hand you, all of those transactional things, because I think there are plenty of design firms and, you know, I wasn’t necessarily in your space all of the time, but, you know, on the packaging, graphic design.

22:02
A lot of the agencies, I think, do it wrong when they come in and they say, this is our process, this is the way we work, this is how we’re going to do it, we’re going to tell you what we’re doing. And they never even get into it. They never take the time to get to know the clients or any of the things, even at a surface level that you’re talking about here. So I love that you start with the listening. Yeah, I think you nailed it when you said a lot of folks come and say, this is how we’ve always done it. say, if somebody says to you, typically,

22:31
this is what we do. I would run from that person. Because I think you have to bury your ego and listen to sort of have chaos and comfort all at the same time. Because if you can bring those together, you should at the end of the day, we want to be able to squint at a project and see the party or the esquist that’s happened there. Irrespective of material or how many chairs or tables there are, what the lighting is.

23:00
but understand like, oh, I know why they designed it this way, plan, or I know why this wall looks like it does. So I think it’s like, if somebody says, this is what I would always do, that person has earned that reputation because they outlasted somebody else. They did not earn that reputation because they were good listeners or I don’t know, they were challenging or interrogating the process. They’re probably just doing what they’ve done successfully for

23:30
the last 10 years and then they’re going to hand the torch to somebody else that outlasts them. You have to have empathy too. And ego doesn’t really go with that. Most people never have the opportunity to build their own house or build a restaurant or a bar or a kitchen or a distillery and follow something that they’ve never done. Cause it takes a lot of courage to do that. So I always say like we have to, it’s going to be chaos. They’re hiring us to give it.

23:58
give this frenetic process some calm and some repose, the best thing we can do is remember they’ve never done it and there’s no formula for this. So let’s make it as fun as it possibly can, which means there’s there’s no, no holds bar. Just go after it. Well, let’s talk about the sticks and bricks a little bit, because I think the foundation of the conversation is, is really meaningful with regards to having the, a really solid place to start from.

24:26
for sure. So all of that that you guys said I think is really foundational. When we start putting the sticks and bricks to it, maybe you can walk us through one of your projects if you can and kind of tell us how you kind of took some of this thinking and then applied the sticks and bricks to it. And as our listeners are listening, I want you guys to think about whatever your physical thing is that you have in mind, whether it is a product, even like a service, if you could tangibly.

24:53
rectify that in your head or a space in general and think about how the stinking translates. So maybe you can kind of give some insight about how you do that into the sticks and bricks. The first thing I talked about was what makes you so damn special. Really awesome when you have dusted that off and you figure out how you took this funnel and it back out, squeezed out the bottom of it. Because I think that that is how you start. Oftentimes it isn’t apparent until you begin

25:21
Maybe, I mean, it happens at different places for every project, but it’s that every project has that one thing, which is the constraint that allows you to get distilled back to the roots of what you’re trying to solve. would say my favorite type of projects normally are the ones that are a landmark project, like in a building that is historically significant. Yeah. Or in a space that is so sacred, nothing can be done.

25:50
or things that are notorious places. Like Cincinnati, one of my favorite projects we’ve ever did, Cincinnati had a famous restaurant, I it was, I it started in 1966, and it was called The Masonette. And it was a famous five-star French restaurant. A lot of chefs cut their teeth there, and we’ll call that sort of their learning ground or their testing ground. Well, it was very successful.

26:19
And I think it lasted until 2005, I think it shut down because nobody was downtown in 2005. And it was sort of in the epicenter of downtown surrounded by sort of, so it was the culinary epicenter of the city, the Mason Atlas. It was the best you could get. And it was next to the Playhouse. So it’s also sort of the cultural epicenter of the city, but no one’s there.

26:48
And so, you know, we interviewed for that job again. We win it because we’re kind of David and everyone else was Goliath and they came stacked with the, you know, 25,000 square foot restaurants that they’ve done over the last 15 years. And we came in and said, exactly why we don’t have those is why you need to hire us because we’re going to do you. We’re going to make this about you. And so it was right at a time in 2005, shuts down. Things are.

27:17
not happening in city. But by the time the project starts, I think you fast forward probably about six years. So it’s 2012 or so, 2011. And 3CDC has scavenged all the buildings down there and decided to really change Cincinnati, bring the urban core back. And the Mason, that happens to be one of those buildings. We get the opportunity to talk to chef who wants to create his restaurant, which isn’t the Macy’s.

27:47
and it’s going to be called Boca, right? And he says, you know, what do we know about fine dining? The masonet is the masonet. you know, masonet was very much like Disney. All the service and the extraditing happens behind the scenes. And it’s a beautiful sort of choreographed event that happens. You take a sip of water, you set it down, the glass gets refilled magically, and you don’t know how it happens, it does. know, crumbs disappear and things happen.

28:14
And you’re just like, wow, that was crazy. And you have to act like all this stuff and it’s fine dining. So all those shelter magazines and shows and food network and HTC TV make everything super approachable. we’re like, nobody comes to fine dining anymore. How do we change this? And we say, well, let’s show them everything. Let’s show them every damn thing. Let’s show them the dish. Let’s show them where we throw all the scraps. Let’s show them everything about this.

28:43
We’re going turn it completely inside out. I’m to rip the skin off of its cadaver. So we get into the masonet, which is very put together. And we employ a strategy of, we’re going to remove everything and we’re going to accept what we have because it’s mise en place. It’s an ingredient. So where we have brick, going to have, we’re going to see brick. Where we have stone, where we find stone, we’re going to, we’re going to expose that. We find timber, great. We find.

29:14
you know, wrought iron steel, we’re going to expose that. So then that leads into sort of the idea that if we’re exposing everything, that means the design is off. So it leads to a building shell that’s completely exposed. It also lets us take that kitchen and put no walls around it. And it becomes sort of the heart then of the whole restaurant. And it has a pulse and you can feel it and you can see it and it resonates. And people get excited about the fact that I can see black truffle. It’s right there. I can see it. I don’t know where it came from.

29:43
project was really the turning point for us where we were like, this is just like how we do a house for somebody. And it’s in a commercial standpoint. Like most times you do a commercial or I would say most commercial projects are like, give me your program, which is that survey and give me your three cool trendy materials that people seem to like, whether it’s black iron or it’s Edison light bulbs, or it’s pipe and reclaimed barn wood, you know, or nowadays it’s

30:13
yellow tone medals and black windows, right? So we leave Chip and Joanna’s stuff in the truck and let’s go someplace else, right? So- Tell us how you really feel. So, I mean, it starts with that and it just leads to like we found out for them, it’s about bearing their soul. It’s about showing what’s inside. So then we just lean into that. We lean downhill over our ski tips and we apply that to everything.

30:41
We’re going to expose everything, which then makes the design really easy. It’s like, you could choose when to dress it up or dress it down by adding a piece of antiquity, like a found item or building a gorgeous bar out of sink. Because why not? That’s fun. That’s different. And then you get this thing that I think this is their 10th year this year that they’re going to celebrate. And, you know, it will always be the masonet to me, but like I got interviewed once and they’re like,

31:11
Man, you’re so lucky you get to do the masonet. was like, man, that’s a hell of a thing to say. Like I’m so lucky. I was like, no, it’s pretty petrifying. sometimes you have to, you have to know your audience all the time, but you have to be that scalpel or that sledgehammer. And so it really was about like, I just hope we don’t mess it up. And so we didn’t, thankfully, because we listened and we were able to say, wow, we found out the thing.

31:40
which will lead us into the material, but it also imparts across their menu, their operational aspects of it. It falls into everything, how they look, how they dress. So, I mean, that project will always be huge for me, because I felt like this, when we did, we do custom residential also, and when we get into a house with somebody, we learn where the guns are, where the lingerie is, where Junior’s favorite soup spoon is. So we learn all those things.

32:09
We got into that with restaurants also, and I think that led to us finding the special sauce, I guess, and being able to then say, okay, maybe that’s our formula is we’ve truly find out about that person and the things that the team that makes them who they are. And then we lean into that. I don’t know, Boca was definitely a very great project for us to figure out sort of, it’s not about sticks and bricks, but.

32:38
it can become about that so easily if you just listen to it. I don’t know. I always loved that project because it was a blast. was a… We put a lot of time into it, a lot of effort, and they were right there with us. It requires presence, but it was great. To that point, there’s an authenticity that comes through with design when you do it like that. And it’s not about… You know, we have some Anzac’s tile in that place, which is awesome.

33:06
And people would say, oh, that’s trendy. Well, no, it’s authentic. And so everything that we’ve shown was about authenticity. We weren’t hiding anything. These are our ingredients. We’re going to put them in here and we’re going to show you how we think it should be done. I don’t Hopefully that that allows it. think that project was also special because it was in that historic building that John Rowe and all these other great chefs came out of. So was like, what is a kid not from Cincinnati going to do to this building?

33:35
and make the Mason at the Mason that again, it wasn’t about that at all. was sort of doing him like whatever made them so damn special doing that there. And then we kept the outside kind of the same. didn’t need to be a folly. It was already a landmark in the fabric of downtown. So it was like, all we need to do is put the nail polish back on and put some makeup on. So it was being discreet and just leaning into the aspects of what do we want to be? are who or who are we? And then it led to the design.

34:05
Well, first of all, I get like goosebumps as you tell that story. Being from Cincinnati and my husband was in restaurants for years and the legacy of what that building was, and now what it is and what it’s become. I think there’s a lot of things in the way that you approach the work that make projects like that possible. It’s that you take the time to kind of peel away and get at what is that crux that we’re working from.

34:32
And then it becomes about the consistency by which that dictates every decision and not dictates in a restrictive way, but helps to set the choices forth so that they almost reveal themselves to you instead of you having to like look into what that can be or what the options are. I feel like they kind of speak to you in that way. And then making sure that it’s every single touch point, because I think that especially in a situation like that where there’s so much legacy and history and

35:02
the ghosts of Chef’s Past are kind of right there with you. It’s a tremendous challenge. But when you can take the handcuffs off in the right way and allow that big idea to flow all the way through every single piece of it, then the people that come into it and really appreciate it and become your top fans are there for that reason, which is just remarkable. And I think there’s pitfalls, though, with that, because I would say most would easily say, well,

35:32
We figured it out. We know what to do. We’re going to do that again.” Or they would sit there and they would say, like, you know, there’s a lot of clients we work for that have multiple locations and they’re gracious enough to take us with them into different areas, different cities, different locales. So it’s very easy for somebody to be like, oh, just give me your brand standards. And so I think you can’t be complacent.

36:01
or rest on the fact that, this is what they told me last time, or this is what they do. Here’s their chairs, here’s their booths. I think there’s no such thing as rollout. Whoever uses that word, they’re the same person that says, well, this is what I would do. And that’s their Bible they hand to you. Right, so I would tell you that everything is a prototype, everything, because it’s going to be either about the client, about the site, or about the brand.

36:30
I love the fact when we get to take like Bakersfield or Eagle into a different city, who’s never seen that before. the good thing is that brand recognizes that we can change this whenever we want. So if you go to Detroit and you walk in for a taco in Detroit versus Pittsburgh, I mean, who’s making tacos? Tex-Mex. In either of those two cities.

37:00
but they feel like Bakersfield, but they’re different. Like one of them’s a basement condition and one of them is, you know, on a historic eight lane highway that thrives a couple of times a year where they have a homecoming of Ford, Chevy and Dodge, but it’s different. mean, Goodfellas Pizzeria and Wise Guys, it’s a similar situation. Like we take them down to Chattanooga and there’s a underground layer of whiskey there. In Cincinnati, it’s hidden.

37:29
behind a soda machine and up a flight of stairs you’d never think to go up to. So it’s just different. But I think you have to be, when we’re talking about brand, you have to understand that this is not the playbook that we, we have to do every single play exactly like this. This is not, you’re allowed to change this. This, there are things that we like, but it’s malleable. You can change it. And most folks, most brands, most companies, most corporations, they’re just like,

37:58
This is my logo, I’m never changing it. This is how I do my things, I’m never changing it. We got it all figured out. And I think that’s preposterous too. I think you have to be able to say, did you have to be able to throw everything back into that funnel and distill it back to the essence of it. And that’s what’s great about projects or clients that are like, can you guys do our brand standards? And I’m like, yeah, we can do them. But it’s funny to me that you’re gonna call it a standard.

38:28
You’ll see.

38:33
Well, I think it’s a really fantastic nuance because there is an element, and I think if I’m hearing you right, but you can correct me, that there is an element of consistency that is important to be able to, it’s able to carry the brand, but there’s an element of appreciating the other stuff around it, the environment around it, the localization of it that allows it to live in a way that.

38:55
breathe life in the place that it is versus like it has to be a cookie cutter place that just lifts in place, lifts in place. And then you wonder why is it not doing well? Well, it’s like, it’s not doing well because it’s not capturing that essence. Why are you so damn special? What you keep going back to? What are you selling? When are you selling it? All these things that are very important to ask. And if you’re ignoring the quintessential piece around it, which is the people, which we go back to all the time, it’s like the listening.

39:23
then you’ve lost. And so I think there’s a really hard balance for a lot of people about like maintaining some element of consistency, which the older the brand gets feels like that becomes the majority versus what’s flexible, right? And the elements of what can be malleable, what can change, what can be adaptable to the localization, if you will. So can you speak a little bit to that? Because I know a lot of people when they think about

39:51
brand and probably coming from the world of brand from in April, we talk about brand standards and the importance of brands here because we see people be too lenient on that as well. Can you speak a little bit to that? So I will tell you that there’s pitfalls one way, there’s pitfalls the other way, constant and variable. Those things, I think that’s the key to sort of locking a brand in or a better way to say it would probably say respect.

40:20
So I think the key for us would be authenticity is always key. Being authentic to what it is that made you so damn special. That doesn’t need a rapper. So that’s a culture, a product, a glyph, a logo. You have to be authentic to that. I think experience is also one of those things that is forever, right? Everybody wants an experience because you remember that, you see it.

40:50
So for us, would say brand or implementation of that brand or that culture, that’s going to be king also. So an authentic experience that is unmatched. McDonald’s, we could pick on them because they’re a brand that’s been around and they’ve served. I don’t even know a number I could throw out there, but Jillian, guess, would maybe. You know, at one point, McDonald’s, I’m sure you could think back and say, well, what’s the oldest McDonald’s I’ve ever seen?

41:20
And it probably has two yellow arches and the white roof and cars pulled up around it. And it’s more like a burger hop. And then you can say, well, what’s the wildest McDonald’s I’ve ever seen. And it’d like, well, they sold pizzas and it was in Tokyo. You’re like, well, why are they selling pizzas in Tokyo if this is McDonald’s? So I think that you have to be authentic to what makes you so damn special. And it’s very easy to say, well, I just need to sell.

41:51
So I’m gonna give them what they want. And that has a tendency to take things and just to get the hell out of it. And it effervesces and it falls away. So I think you have to be authentic in how you do things. And so you could still localize things, but as long as you’re authentic, it’ll work. It’ll come across. No, I think that’s exactly right. And I think that what is sitting with me is the trendy piece of so much of what you’ve said.

42:21
We’ll ask that question a little bit differently to what we’re going to ask. I know. I’m like poking, I know, a little bit at this whole situation. I think what you said and the job that you have to do consistently gets harder every day because you have people that believe anyone can do it. And that I think takes away from that authenticity piece and the art and science combination.

42:49
of what we’re trying to do here and what you’re actually solving for. so, you know, I’m hearing you say there is no one process. There is no singular way to do it. I heard you say there’s no trends. So I won’t push that on you. Well, I think it’s an important sort of discussion because I mean, I always get invited to trend happy hours to talk about, know, tile or whatever. And I sit there and think, well, trends end, right? They have an end to them.

43:20
But if it’s done properly, a design transcends that. Yes. Right. So that design lexicon that gets forged in facts and emotions is not about the coolness factor necessarily or some kitsch thing that people love for a moment and then it’s gone and it flings out. So I think you constantly have to sit there and say, everything’s a prototype. We can change.

43:50
We can morph, we can be something new because everything is borrowed and done a different way. It’s just seen in a different light from somebody that came from a different perspective. So that’s what this all is about for me that like the special sauce is listen, say what you would do, listen to what others would do and then dust it off and say, well, that’s the thing we need to do because no one else is doing that. it’s, to me, I think anyone that

44:19
says they focus, it’s very trendy. Thankfully we have enough digital interfaces we could see exactly what not to do. And just putting up Instagram or Pinterest, you can see the things that are shown on there. I would say that was popular last year or the year before. I love the fact that brass came back three years ago and gold medals were not passe anymore. You couldn’t, you could actually use them, but I’m done with it now, right?

44:47
gold fixtures and I’m like, well, Liberace had gold fixtures and so did Elvis, but you don’t, you don’t wear sequined suits. So I don’t think you should have that, but we can have that. We can have that conversation with you. So I don’t know. I think I would say if I had to target and say something was trend or what you’re going to see, I would say that, and we’ve been pushing for this for damn near probably 20 years, that you will never lose.

45:17
If you lean into sort of texture from a visual or a sensory or a tactile standpoint, if you can touch it or you can see it, that texture, whatever it is, and texture could have so many, it could even be a feel, right? If you put that into your design work, drywall is no longer drywall.

45:46
If it is painted with a textured paint, it’s not that anymore. It may not be authentic, but tri-wall is not that authentic anyways. you know, wall covering that has texture to it is not wallpaper. Textured ceilings, textured floors, textured, no work. Texture, a hem, a fold, a pleat. Detail the world around you so that it is special and it’s prototypical and it’s not produced. It’s scratch and

46:15
You’ll have it. Lean into those things. That’s what I would say. I hope that becomes the trend. Where it isn’t about a material, it’s just about the idea that it needs to be more sensory and more tactile or whatever. So it’s about more senses than just, do I see? I love it when it becomes about how it feels or how it looks or how it, I’m sorry, how it sounds, you know, that sort of thing. So I hope that becomes.

46:43
We use that a lot because nobody else cares about that. They just want, you know, black windows and white shiplap. Everywhere, just everywhere. McDonald’s with black windows and white shiplap. I can’t wait to see that one. It’s probably a Martha’s. No, I guess it wouldn’t That’s too close though. It wouldn’t be a Martha’s in here. It wooden shake there.

47:12
But yeah.

47:17
Awesome. Now this has been a fantastic discussion of everything related to design, brand, physical structures and translating them to any structure that we’ve been talking about. So I’d love to hit on some rapid fires if you’re up for it because this just gets to help people know a little bit more about you outside of the conversation we just had. So are you ready for this? Yeah, I do have to say one more thing. Oh, least. kind of alluded to at the beginning and this was just like, you know, I think also

47:46
with technology and information being what they are, you’re see a lot of design is digital these days, where you can video map a structure, like take Hagia Sophia and you can make it look like a pyramid by, you could change its architecture digitally. That happens a lot at big events, but due to that, I would suggest that picking materials that are popular or trendy doesn’t matter because designing is,

48:15
shifting into a realm where it’s gonna be immersive. The floor is a screen, the ceiling’s a screen, the wall’s a screen, and I’m, I don’t know, in Greece for one meal, and then 20 minutes later, I’m sitting in the middle of the desert watching you two play in a dome, right? It’s just, it can be instant, it can change instantly. So I can’t wait to see what that does to architecture and sort of how we design because we can change it.

48:44
make it anything once we there’s no rules. Again, it’s prototypical. So that was a little aside. But I think it’s getting back. It is more of a changing into away from sticks and bricks. So it goes and we’re like, you know, it’s ethereal and it one thing’s physical and it’s becoming so non physical again, where we have the opportunity to do that. It’s going to be very interesting what the next 10 years looks like. Yes, like Star Trek. When they have the

49:13
that kind of room so can make it whatever you wanted to make it. I mean, we have heard a lot of people sharing from their experiences at the Dome, like the U2 concert just at the Dome. And you say it just takes it to a whole new different level. So I think what you’re saying makes a ton of sense that people are kind of tapping in now even to a different realm. not even 3D anymore. I don’t even know what you would call it, 4D, 5D, 6D, but it’s a whole new level of thinking and consideration. And so that’s going to be really, really cool.

49:43
Yeah, we do a lot of events spaces and normally you do an event space. want a space that has great contrast that you can take photos in and people remember the toast or the food or the event that they had there. All holds are off after that because we can digitally change any environment to make it anything it wants. It can be completely immersive and it’s irrespective of architecture or detailing or ornament at that point. It’s about design. So trend won’t even matter.

50:12
Right. Yeah. right. Thank you for that. That was a really important point. I’m glad we got to cover that. So a few rapid fires. So we’ll start with a very obvious question, but what’s your favorite building or favorite structure and why? I’d say in the States, I have to love the Chrysler building. Interesting. I love that building because it’s a shape-shifter to me, but it also represents a time and a period that

50:39
there weren’t any safety’s done anything. It was about speed. It was about sexiness. It was about evolution of technology of building materials and design. I think that that building is completely an ornament and not a decorated thing. So like, love the fifties. I like the forties, fifties and sixties a lot because there was nothing, most cars, airplanes, vehicles, buildings.

51:04
were very centric to themselves. There weren’t parts that cross-breeded or were used on other models because of necessity or because of production. So for me, that spire, especially at like sunrise or sunset, its stainlessness or the color of that metal takes on the hues and sky. So it shifts its color and its sort of placement in the landscape, even from summer to winter to fall. I love that building for that. And probably because of that, I really love

51:35
Bill Bow in Spain, that Frank Gehry Museum, which does the same thing and it turns Auburn at sunset. I just I love the fact that it’s a building, but it again, I can see it and it changes in front of me. So I love the sort of aspects of it’s a shape shifter. But I would say those two buildings I really love. I love that. OK, that was a good one. Right. So one more. If you could instantly master a skill like in the Matrix, what would it be?

52:04
They could bend time in that, couldn’t they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would probably do that. I want to do that. I mean, my wife will tell you she’s like, Ron’s 150 year old man. This is his like six, seven time around because I love like, I’m not that old, but I love hanging around people that have been places or had experience that I haven’t. Yeah. We’ll just become really good friends real quick, real quick, like insanely quick.

52:34
She’s like, you sat over there and you talked to the old guy or that old lady for like 50 minutes. And I’m like, yeah, I wish I could go back in time and see what they saw. Yeah. So I don’t know. I mean, if I could stop time, would be great. Or if I could bend time, that would be awesome. So I love that. Well, Ron, this has been a fabulous conversation. Just bring us home. Is there anything else that we didn’t cover that you would like to wrap us up with? And then obviously tell people where they can find you.

53:03
I would just tell folks that be fearless. Be fearless. Get outside your comfort level. I don’t know how everybody does that for themselves, but that is the key. If you’re comfortable, you’re not really tapping into sort of the root of it. It’s fine. You’re satisfying the requirement. So I would say just be fearless. That’s what you need to do. I don’t know. can find us, you know,

53:33
We don’t advertise, we don’t put a lot of stake into that. We don’t have big billboard signs on all of our projects. We’re kind of under the belief that the people that are supposed to find us serendipitously do. And so we remain this sort of band of 18 Ronin architects that go around and solve problems. So, but I mean, you can find us at our website, which…

53:58
is drawingdepartment.com. Department is just shortened down to Dept. So it’s DrawingDept.com. We have a website, I think, just to legitimize ourselves, to try to get young students to come work for us, not necessarily get new clients. Because word of mouth, this seems to be how it happens for us. But you can find us if you look for us. I like that. I like that. Well, thank you so much for being part of this. Did we spark something with this episode that you want to talk about further?

54:26
reach out to us through our website, ForthRight-People.com. We can help you customize what you have heard to move your business and make sure to follow or subscribe to Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast platform!