Classics: Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | May 20, 2025

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In this Classics episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, we’re talking the future of branding with Mitch Duckler. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!

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***Strategic Counsel: Classics: Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand***

It can be difficult to keep up with the marketing and branding landscape – it’s always changing. Wouldn’t it be helpful to hear from top CMOs (Chief Marketing Officers) on the matter? That’s what our guest, Mitch Duckler, did in his new book, The Future-Ready Brand. Mitch is the Founder and Managing Director of FullSurge, a brand and marketing strategy consulting firm that helps clients accelerate business growth. You’ll hear his key insights from the book, how to find an authentic positioning for your brand, how to get personalization right, what to think about AI (Artificial Intelligence) and other new technologies, and the tried-and-true approaches across the marketing and branding landscape. This episode covers everything from branding to strategy. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

What motivated Mitch to write The Future-Ready Brand?
How are CMOs approaching personalization these days?
What are some of the most memorable takeaways from the book?
How do you keep the brand experience strong?
What is the biggest shift we’re seeing in business today?
How are businesses approaching KPIs?
What’s Mitch’s favorite band or music genre?
How are CMOs approaching promotions?

And as always, if you need help in building your Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

Classics: Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand
- [0:00] Welcome to Strategic Counsel
- [0:22] Anne Candido, April Martini
- [1:23] Connect with Mitch on LinkedIn, at FullSurge.com, and check out his new book The Future-Ready Brand
- [1:41] What is his background?
- [2:20] What motivated Mitch to write The Future-Ready Brand?
- [3:08] CMO (Chief Marketing Officer)
- [4:38] What are some of the most memorable takeaways from the book?
- [5:24] What is the biggest shift we’re seeing in business today?
- [7:45] What does it mean to be purpose-driven or purpose-led?
- [11:32] Accenture
- [12:15] Brand Positioning
- [14:35] What other topics does Mitch cover in the book?
- [18:32] How are CMOs approaching personalization these days?
- [20:58] AI (Artificial Intelligence)
- [24:38] How do you keep the brand experience strong?
- [26:18] Brand Management
- [27:30] Minority Report, Tom Cruise
- [29:35] How are businesses approaching KPIs (Key Performance Indicators)?
- [32:02] How are CMOs approaching their marketing campaigns?
- [34:35] How are they approaching promotions?
- [39:32] What’s next for branding?
- [43:02] COVID-19
- Quick-Fire Questions
- [49:54] What other books and podcasts is Mitch consuming?
- [51:04] What’s one thing he wants to focus on this summer?
- [52:02] What’s his favorite band or music genre?
- [54:30] Connect with Mitch on LinkedIn, at FullSurge.com, and check out his new book The Future-Ready Brand
- [55:10] Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
- [55:15] Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn
- [55:25] Shop our Virtual Consultancy

What is Strategic Counsel?

Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team and your business. Now let’s get to it. Welcome to the Strategic Counsel podcast.

00:31
I am Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And as we often do, we’re bringing back a previously recorded classic episode on a topic that is consistently top of mind, and that is the future of branding. In this episode, we welcome special guest Mitch Duckler of FullSurge and the Future-Ready Brand to give a perspective from top CMOs on what this future looks like. In the ever-changing landscape that is branding and marketing, it is essential to keep up.

00:59
And one way to do that is to hear it from those that are in it each day. So whether you’re listening to this episode for the first time or refreshing your memory, let’s get to it. Mitch, it’s great to have you. Do want to introduce yourself to everybody? Yes, it’s great to be with you both. Thanks for having me on. As you said, my name is Mitch Duckler, a managing partner of Full Surge, which is a brand and marketing strategy consultancy out of Chicago. And I just published my second book, which I’m hoping we can talk a little bit about today.

01:29
Absolutely. And as everybody knows, me and April are brand strategists at heart. So we expect that this is going be a fabulous conversation. I’ll focus on brand strategy. And please continue to listen. I hope a lot of people just didn’t turn it off right there. All right. So let’s get started. So Mitch, let’s start with your new book. So let’s just jump right into it, The Future Ready Brand. What motivated you to write the book?

01:53
Well, you threw my client work. It was really evident that the world of marketing and brand building is being impacted pretty significantly by the confluence of really societal and technological trends. So what I mean by that? On the societal side, there were at least three and each one of these are chapter in the book, a huge continued push towards increased transparency and purpose in branding.

02:23
Also, attitudes towards health and wellness, especially post pandemic, and then the emergence of Gen Z. And each of the CMOs that I interviewed for the book, and there were 43 of them, talked about those to some extent. And then also on the technology front, I think we’re aware of most of these, but I put them into three buckets, also intelligence, reality.

02:47
realities and Web3. So on the intelligence side, there’s artificial intelligence, machine learning, predictive analytics and so forth. On the reality side, AR, VR, metaverse and so forth. And then platforms, Web3 basically, and blockchain technology and tokenomics and all the things that really blockchain really enable. So I wanted to determine how some of the best and brightest minds in the world of marketing are.

03:16
for and actually dealing with these factors real time. So I set out to interview 43 of them. They’re mostly Fortune 500 CMOs. 17 actually are in Forbes. 50 most influential CMOs of the world. So I really feel fortunate to have talked to some of the brightest minds in marketing. Well, that’s an incredible list and we do love our research over here on the Marketing Smarts podcast. So clearly you did your due diligence and I think

03:45
exactly what you outlined makes sense as far as like the high level buckets, but would love just what are the, you know, the interviews that stick out most in your mind as it relates to either each of those topics or just in general, who kind of had the best story to tell, like just give us a little more of a peek under the curtain, so to speak, of what stories we can expect from the book. You know, they all were interesting in their own way. You know, I think some of the there’s a few that really stick out.

04:14
had a great interview with Jill Kramer, who’s the CMO of Accenture. And she talked about purpose and how they actually went about identifying their purpose, the corporate purpose of Accenture. And then very importantly, how they merged three different concepts together, if you will, under this theme. The first being corporate purpose, then the second is their business strategy, and then the third, their brand positioning or brand strategy.

04:41
It was really cool to see how that all came to life really under one umbrella that they identified as their purpose. And how is that changing then how they’re doing business? How is that making an inflection point and what has been the shift that they’re seeing from before to now? Well, a couple of things. One is that

05:05
she indicated, and I think this is true for most purpose-driven companies and purpose-driven brands, is that it isn’t just a saying. It’s far more than a CSR, right, a corporate social responsibility campaign or platform, although those are all great too, right? But when you are purpose-driven, it really does influence everything you do in business, right? It is your motivation. It’s the reason why you get out of bed and go to work in them.

05:35
Right? And it informs a lot of decision making. It informs very important strategic decisions that they make. You know, is this decision in concert with our corporate purpose and our brand strategy? You know, does it make sense with our purpose? So it’s almost like a screen or a filter in that regard. And then she also talked about what I found was really interesting too is how they have a brand positioning, which is based on the purpose.

06:04
But the brand positioning has the ability to kind of ebb and flow and change it more over time as the marketplace changes or customer needs change, et cetera, right? That’s kind of allowed to fluctuate in order to remain relevant, but their purpose is pretty enduring, right? That really doesn’t change and they don’t foresee it really ever changing. It’s kind of who they are.

06:30
Well, I mean, you brought up positioning and we said at the beginning that this is one of our very favorite things to talk about. And I think it is really closely linked to purpose, as you said. And, you know, one of the things you said, we’ve had these conversations frequently lately, I feel from clients around the purpose really can’t be lip service, right? And, you you said it can’t just be a platform, similar way of thinking.

06:55
But I think it’s interesting the way you said the positioning can flex, but the purpose doesn’t. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that piece of things, because I think if we’re talking about shifting, that is a shift, right? Like we used to say, you put your stamp in the ground from a positioning standpoint, and it is what it is. Not that you don’t re-examine it or flex it over time or new things come into the marketplace, but being purpose-led first is kind of a new way to look at things. So I would love more perspective around that.

07:24
Sure. So the way she talked about it, and I think it’s fairly consistent with a number of the CMOS I spoke with, and quite frankly with the client work I do, is they think about purpose on three different levels. So the most base level is you might have a cause that you believe in. And that can be reflected through your CSR campaign. And that’s all well and good. But that doesn’t mean you’re purpose-driven. It certainly doesn’t mean you’re defining your entire brand.

07:54
Right. There’s another level up where you become that purpose that I just referenced, right. Is actually what drives you. Right. So you are, it’s not just a CSR campaign. It’s kind of the essence of who you are and shapes what you do. So that’s purpose driven company. Right. And you can also, you can do that without necessarily defining your master brand positioning around it. Right. So just because you’re purpose driven,

08:21
Right, which is kind of more of an internal thing when you think about it doesn’t mean you have to manifest that through your brand, although in the case of Accenture they do. And in the case of some other brands right there, their brand positioning is their corporate purpose, but the separation of the two, or at least the ability to separate them, I think are pretty apparent. And again, I think your positioning does need to be a little bit more fluid than let’s say a purpose, right? Because.

08:49
And that’s why brands very often reposition. Market conditions change, or your competencies change, even your product service offering, or some combination of those which really require you to rethink your brand positioning. So that’s essentially how she defined it. And I think, like I said, it’s fairly consistent with what I’ve seen happening in the marketplace too.

09:16
Yeah, I this is a really interesting conversation. I love to hear other stories that you have from other CMOs related to this too, because I think this is one that a lot of people struggle with. And first, I think I want to be very clear about what the definitions of these two things are, because I think a lot of people might use them interchangeably in a way, but they’re not really. the purpose, if you want to call it your mission or the reason why you exist or what you’re here to do and who you’re here to serve,

09:45
is a foundation of what a brand is based on. It’s what we call our brand story and it’s who you are, why are you different and why do people want you? And that’s a foundation from what you build from. Your positioning is how you orient that within your landscape in order to get people to actually engage with you, to be aware of you and to drive relevance. And so I can see why you were saying, know, like the thread is generally the purpose, the positioning or how you show up can flex based on who you’re talking to.

10:14
what environment you’re talking to them in, what’s going on around you. And it’s really, really important to be very aware and very nimble and very flexible when it comes to these sorts of things, because that landscape is changing very, very rapidly. And so if you’re going to kind of write it down in stone, your purpose and your positioning and intertwine them so tightly that there’s no flexibility there, this is where a lot of people are running into trouble. As well on the flip side is that people arbitrarily define a purpose

10:44
say that that’s their position and then put that on the market and then wonder why this explodes in their face. So I don’t know, Mitch, if you have some more to say about that or maybe another example or two that you can pull from that just to kind of highlights this point for people. Well, actually, I think just even staying on the Accenture, think that let’s put a little bit of teeth around it. So and this is all obviously public information. I’m not talking out of school, but she defined their purpose as to deliver on the promise of technology and human ingenuity.

11:14
right, to deliver on the promise of technology and human ingenuity. And she went, and I go into a lot of detail in the book in terms of how they got there and what each one of those words, right, it’s a 10 word statement, yet each one of those words has significant meaning. But then I asked her, okay, well, how does that relate to your brand strategy and your brand positioning? And she said that their brand positioning is really defined by a current campaign that they call Let There Be Change. And she said that,

11:43
What that is, the concept, she said one thing that is true with, consistent with the purpose and true with all the clients that they work with are that everyone experiences change and that everyone is either trying to affect change or cope better with it, right? And that change is inherently a good thing and you shouldn’t fight it and therefore let there be change and obviously.

12:09
through the combination of technology and human ingenuity, that’s a possibility through Accenture. So again, you can start to envision how maybe over time, in fact, I assume over time that campaign will shift, and it might take a different twist or turn, and they would bring that purpose, that 10-word purpose of…

12:32
technology and human ingenuity to life or express it in a different way. Still consistent with that purpose, but maybe, for example, less focused on the concept of change. So that’s, think, I don’t know if that helps, but that gives you an example of how you kind of have this enduring foundation, really, if you will, and purpose, but you can kind of ebb and flow or fluctuate it with your brand in order to stay relevant.

13:00
I think it’s a great contextualized example because, you know, one of the things we’re always trying to do is, is peel back the curtain. And obviously you said this is all public knowledge. So it’s not like we’re sharing anything that we shouldn’t. But I think as you’re talking, the thing that resonates with me is when brands overall are really intentional about all of the stuff we’re talking about here, right. And how they work together and what that looks like. And when we speak about campaigns specifically,

13:27
uh, the ability to make sure that they stay on strategy, but they can flex with the messaging and the time. And you talked about change just being inherent in all of this, which is another thread that we talk about constantly. Um, so I would love to hear other kind of the thread of change, like where else with some of those other themes that you brought up at the beginning, what are some other of those like meaty examples? Because I think that one really is easy to

13:56
see how it works, both in concept and then through to execution. So I’d love to tackle some of the other pieces as well. Yeah, well, think, and again, especially as you think about the concept of purpose, right? purpose as potential basis for brand positioning. And we talk about in the book,

14:20
there being, and this is actually not my thinking total upfront, right? This is from HBR, Harvard Business Review, but they talk about three potential sources of purpose. One, which is by far the most common would be a cause, right? And I think most people actually associate those two or use those two terms that are changeably assumed that a purpose is a cause, right? And the two most popular are probably ESG, right? The environment or societal like the ENI.

14:49
And a lot of companies today are elements of one of those two as their purpose. And then they carry that through to how they position their brand. But in that HPR article, which is I think fairly reputable or fairly popular, they also talk about two other. They also start with C. Besides cause, there could be competence, which is the name suggests that is based on what you do better than anyone else, your superpower.

15:19
For example, in the case of IBM, you and you think about what their brand stands for is a smarter planet, right? And they are a company that is just thriving on intelligence and being artificial intelligence. So you start to get, see the connection there, right? A purpose based on the competence, right? Smarter planet, it’s linked to AI and some of the great work that, service-based work that they do. The third C is culture, right? Which is based on your corporate

15:48
values and the way you conduct business. So it’s fairly similar to cause, right, in some ways, but it’s more internally focused, right? It’s not about something like an external like cause or event or entity. It’s about just the way you believe in doing business, right? And how you define your culture, how you inspire your people, how you recruit things like that. So I think in the book, I talked about Mars, Mars being a one that defines their purpose around their culture.

16:19
I don’t recall exactly what the example was, but it was based again very much on their corporate values and what they look for when they hire and the type of environment or culture they try to foster. I think that’s a really great descriptor of three categories that I do think drives purpose. And I think there’s examples, great examples of in…

16:45
All three of those, I if you were talking about Cosme, Tom’s kind of invented that, so to speak. We talked about competence, and you said in IBM, Chick-fil-A is another one we’ve talked a lot about from a culture standpoint. We have a great episode on that for people to go back and listen to. So I think that really sums up nicely the three ways that you can really embrace purpose and then build positioning around it. As long as it’s intentional, as April mentioned, which I think is an extremely important point.

17:14
And as long as something that is consistent and systemic, something that you’re gonna go live on a regular basis, it’s not something you go in and out on. So I think that’s really, really well said. I wanted to move to another one of the points and I think this is a foundation of a lot of consternation from a lot of marketing executives and that’s what you call personalization and the use of all of these really like fancy technical tools now that people are using in order to build.

17:41
that level of customization for folks. We’re talking about AR, we’re talking about IR, we’re talking about AI, all of the acronyms, if you will, that help to build some level of ways that people can engage in brands and engage in products that make them feel a little bit more emotionally engaged. So I’d love for you to talk a little bit about that and what’s the role of that and how are CMOs really embracing these technologies in order to

18:11
to really move their brands in a different direction. Before I do, I just want to go back to the one final point that you kind of triggered for me on purpose just before you came in. I think it is so important. You talked about it, the authenticity of it and being very consistent. And I think it’s really important to call that out of all the topics I talked about in my book, I would say purpose is the one that’s not really new. Purpose has been the notion of purpose.

18:38
being purpose-driven and even purpose branding has been around for a decade and a half or more, I could believe, right? And I think that’s all the more reason why what you said is so important around just being able to deliver on it consistently, or I think maybe intentional is the word you used, and it has to be very authentic, because I think the antenna is up for purpose-washing, right? Yeah, absolutely. And people are really, really walking the walk or just talking the talk, right?

19:08
I felt compelled just to throw that in there because I think it is an important point you brought up. didn’t want to gloss over. No, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it’s table stakes now for some elements of this. It’s not really a positioning that differentiated. mean, everybody expects you to be good for the environment, socially aware and accepting and inclusive. So people who are basing their brands on these things that are now considered table stakes, not

19:34
because they’re not important just because everybody expects that from them now is definitely something you need to start thinking about how to elevate. So thank you for that. think that’s a really important point. I’m glad you brought that up. So go back to the personalization. We’ll move on to that. Let’s talk about two concepts because I think they’re interrelated. So the first is personalization. And then I think that there are

19:58
it has some implications for experience. And that’s where maybe some of the other technologies like AR and VR come in. And so let’s start with personalization. There were really two common sub themes that came out from the interviews under the umbrella of personalization and basic and more specifically, AI and its ability to enable personalization. And they are

20:25
micro segmentation and hyper personalization. So let’s talk about micro segmentation is the ability, is generally, which is really afforded by AI to segment markets based on an infinitely more granular basis, right? So you can think about segmentation, a traditional segmentation schema may have five or six add to two miller behavioral segments, right? It can be B to B, B to C.

20:53
Well, think about AI can produce literally hundreds or even thousands of mini-seconds. It almost has the ability to almost approach, you know, the Peppers and Rogers vision of one-to-one marketing that they had back in the early 90s. And it’s really AI’s incredible computing power that allows that, right? It can take a number of different variables, look at different possibilities or outcomes of those variables, combine them and then…

21:23
segment at a very, very granular basis, you know, based on that, and that just isn’t possible without, without the computing power really, and the capabilities of AI. So then once you have that segment, those segments, really, really granular segments, or almost think of it in theory, at least as one to one, then there’s the concept of hyper personalization, right? So how do you actually craft everything right from the product?

21:49
on the offering or configuration, the communication and messaging around your brand or the actual experience you deliver to that mini segment, if you will, that it could be one or a few. In a way that’s hyper relevant. Again, think segmentation certainly goes a long way because it doesn’t treat everybody the same. It’s not one size fits all. It’s saying, we’re gonna kind of craft the experience based on, you know.

22:15
or and or target based on you being in one of five or six segments. We’ll imagine doing it on one-to-one basis, how much more powerful that even is. And that is at least some of the more sophisticated CMOS that I spoke with that are really applying AI to the max today. And that’s the way they’re describing it, right? It’s almost like segmentation is a thing of the past, right? It’s too simplistic. It’s too archaic.

22:44
Right now you almost have to think about one-to-one and you can to a certain extent with AI. And then taking that one step further with the experience, right? And that’s where they start combining AI with things like augmented reality and virtual reality, especially AR. And then delivering, especially in retail environments, experiences that are very, very immersive and tailored to the individual in question.

23:14
right, Tom? This all of course requires at least some degree of zero or first party data. But if you do have that and you combine that with AI, it’s really a very powerful combination. Well, and this kind of stuff is super fascinating, right? Just the, you know, I mean, I can, I was, you know, back at the table creating segmentation decks as you were talking and what that looked like. you know, the six

23:39
profiles or buckets or whatever what we were trying to do versus what you’re talking about here, which is really getting down into the weeds of things. But one of the things that struck me as you were talking is, you know, we have the conversation often about these types of things being tools versus expecting them to solve everything. And so I would be interested in what is the perspective there around? How do you make sure that the

24:06
experience of your brand doesn’t become fragmented and you’re still holding to that high level strategy while creating these experiences one off for people so that it holds together still, right? Because I agree with you. mean, I think segmentation feels oversimplified when you think about what we have at our disposal, but then there can be too much of a good thing, right? So I think the key to that

24:32
is when we talk about tailoring anything, whether it’s the offer or the experience, that we’re doing so in a way that is still true to the brand position, right? So we don’t, what I’m not suggesting is that you go off and activate or execute or deliver to your brand in ways that are entirely separate from your positioning, right? You need to do it in a way that is consistent with your positioning, but even that,

25:01
there’s still a lot of degrees of variability that can be, you can customize different components of, let’s say, an offer, you can tweak your messaging, you can give an experience that might be a little bit more relevant for one individual versus another without necessarily betraying your brand positioning. Because I think that is still true today, right? We don’t, this is not saying that branding is dead.

25:28
right, you know, at all. Or even that is changing, right? I think some of the core tenets of a brand strategy still remain, right? Or even the discipline of brand management are still critical, right? It’s still, you know, it’s still paramount to be customer-centric. It is still critical to have a single-minded differentiated brand positioning. And you need to deliver on that, but that doesn’t mean can’t

25:55
do that in ways that are nuanced and highly more relevant to certain people based on, again, who they are and, or maybe even just their context, right? A lot of it is just, are you catching that? Where are you catching them? Location wise or time of day or what have you, and you might tweak it that way. That’s not fundamentally changing your brand or it shouldn’t, right? If it does, then I think you’re right. It could actually be more disruptive than help.

26:24
Well, it kind of takes me to the movie Minority Report. I remember when we first saw that movie with Tom Cruise that it felt like that was such a distant future world where you’re walking by a billboard and the billboard calls you by name or they’re able to customize the message according to you. And it’s a little freak out ish to some extent that people can or even a system, you know, you so well that they can.

26:51
they can do that, but it is the next level of personalization of being able to feel like that brand knows you or they get you. And that’s the basis, as you said, of brand strategy is being able to elicit that emotional connection based on a relationship that the brand, that you feel like the brand knows you, they get you, they’re delivering these things for you. Now, we’ll have to figure out, we’ll probably have to like creep into how slowly you have to…

27:19
to gain that familiarity so you don’t put people like totally off. But it is a really important, interesting phenomena of being able to target in a way that feels hyper relevant and then be able to use technology to respond in a way that delivers on that. And I think that’s been like the intersection that we’ve been trying to do for a very long time, but no matter what marketing channel we’ve been using, whether it’s traditional advertising, now we’re moving into social, moving into digital, that’s always the objective.

27:49
So now it’s just becoming a little bit more more intimate, but it is something that’s very, very strange because it kind of blows up the philosophy of what you’re trying to deliver from a brand standpoint because brands generally meant to please the masses. Everything that you design for is generally meant to please the masses is why we had segmentation when we only had five because we’re trying to get to 80 % household penetration or we’re trying to get that traction or that trial by appealing to a more general audience.

28:18
versus going hyper relevant. So my question is, is this changing the philosophy or the strategy that a lot of businesses are now approaching the way that they introduce products, the way they introduce services, the way that they’re actually determining how to build those KPIs? Yeah, I think it is gradually, but it’s interesting because I think there’s two different issues that came up, at least two.

28:46
Fairly consistently with the CMOS I spoke with when it came to AI and some of what you were just talking about, right? This notion of hyper personalization. And they’re both catch 22s. The first catch 22 is consumers say they want personalization. They want customization. They don’t want to be treated like a number, right? They want to know that the brand understands them and is meant for them, right? In order to do that, what does it require?

29:14
requires you as a brand to understand that, right? And in order to do that, you need data, right? You need information on it. Well, guess what? 70 % of consumers say they’re very leery to give marketers information. that’s what I do, right? You want them to know you, but you don’t want to give them your information. And that’s one of the things that they’re saying they’re running up against. And then the other one, which I think is kind of where you were going with your question is, yeah, it is this,

29:43
this creep factor, right? Oh my god, they know that they’re following me. It’s big brother-ish. Well, but you say you want it tailored to you, right? You want it to be hyper relevant. Like, oh my god, they’re reading my mind. They’re, oh my god, reading my mind. You know what I So I think that there is that we’re in kind of this period of evolution or transition maybe, you know, where it’s, think, not sure where it’s going to come out or maybe it just

30:13
You know, the technology is gaining adoption so fast, It’s AI in particular that, you know, we’re still kind of figuring it out. Like maybe this is something people will get used to, right? And it will no longer be creepy or maybe it won’t. And marketers are going to have to figure out a way to be more subtle or I don’t know. I think the scripts still being written on that one. Yes, that was a really great.

30:37
perspective to offer for that question. But I was also like trying to get to two is like, is it changing the strategy by which the CMOs are doing their marketing? Are they going after more of those hyper segmentation versus more mass messaging? Or is it kind of like a mix or is it like, how are they starting to think about where or how to do their marketing campaigns? Well, it depends on a couple of things. And then first it depends on the CMO.

31:05
the company, the brand and their specific business, right? I think the business here and certainly has implications for the level to which you need to and can do that, right? That level of personification. The other thing is, as you might expect, it differs by channel, even within the same business. obviously the more mass oriented media like broadcast, TV advertising, mean that

31:34
that is not really being, you know, meaningfully changed by AI necessarily. But when you start thinking about promotional ads or messages being pushed out by that exact same brand to a mobile phone, that is, you know, they are thinking about hyper personalization there, right? And they’re thinking a lot about, especially in like retail brands, this came up a lot in food service, right? Fast food are some of the best examples of this.

32:04
you know how they will even to the same consumer deliver even to the same consumer right deliver a different message or a different promotion or offer based on the time of day or the location right again all this requires other technology like you know zero or first party data gps or geofencing right but hey based on where they are and the time of day and what they did last tuesday when they were here this is the offer i’m gonna

32:32
Right, so yeah, I think it is changing, but it’s not a one size fits not a blanket change. think it’s there still is an element of mass communication that isn’t being tailored, but there are others based on channel or context that are. Well, I think you sort of naturally, I feel like I’m putting on the hand hat jumped into the next portion here, which is all around promotion.

32:59
And we talk all the time about the right message at the right time with the right storyteller to people. And we talk also about how it’s always more of an art than a science, right? And so you sort of started to go there. So I’m just going to let you keep on going, but talk about how are CMOs navigating the choices? Because even in the example that you just gave us, I mean, think about that’s one person, right? But like there’s so many opportunities of where I am, what I did last week.

33:27
what time of day it is, I mean, it’s a lot. So how are CMOs making those choices and then what’s working and what’s not working related to that? Well, I think maybe I was made one question out of my response because in fact, I would argue that the promotions are arguably becoming more science than art. It’s not an example that I just gave, right? So.

33:54
Instead of one size fits all or instead of guessing, instead of, you know, again, throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks, they’re choosing promotions, whether it’s a specific offer or the messaging around it or both, you’re tailoring that.

34:12
to be more relevant and with a higher likelihood to convert, right? Based on all this different information that again, it’s not all AI, but AI is certainly making it possible, right? And again, understanding it’s a lot of things coming together, right? So part of it is other technology like let’s say GPS, they wanna know what location you’re in. So you’re being…

34:40
being followed, you will, on a mobile phone. There’s also first party data. So they know your behavior and what you tend to respond to or not. And that’s coming together. And there’s, yeah, what type of campaigns or offers do you typically respond to or typically reject? And then it’s artificial intelligence that allows you to look at the myriad of potential opportunities or tactics that you can employ and choose the best one based on all.

35:11
And all of a sudden, again, I think it’s not that art’s going away, but it’s becoming much more scientific, right? Because it’s based much more on data, it’s based much more on predictive analytics, right? What is going to convert for this consumer in this location at this time? I mean, is it 100 %? No, but it’s probably much better than guesswork, right? It’s certainly more reliable than that.

35:38
Yeah, and I think if you’re a small medium sized business, this should sound like music to your ears. Although some of America probably be feel totally overwhelmed by everything that we’re saying. But I think if I was going to just kind of drill it down to what is the key factors that are driving success, regardless of how you’re getting that data, it’s really understanding the consumer in a hyper relevant way about who is your opportunistic consumer.

36:05
in a very, very intimate way, not in a segmentation model way, but a very intimate way. And again, getting over the mindset that I have to appeal to everybody, right? And so it’s really understanding your highly opportunistic consumer, the data behind their purchase decisions, especially related to your industry or category, starting to activate that through promotion so you can learn what is working for them, right? And so…

36:32
This is a way to win now where before the world was like the people who had the most money and the biggest voice got all the attention. Now with some very strategic and not even that like even though AI feels everybody feels it’s sophisticated, it’s really just a tool as April said in order to get the data. So using whatever tools at your disposal, you have the opportunity now to break through in a way that you couldn’t break through before. And so I think that’s a really powerful thing for small and medium sized businesses to really embrace, don’t you think?

37:02
Yes, absolutely. And there are a lot of analogs back to the late 1990s, early 2000s. And at that time, they talked about how the internet and World Wide Web is democratizing marketing. Because all of us in the miracle, you don’t need $100 million or more or plus advertising budget. You can reach consumers in a very, very cost effective way.

37:31
at scale, right? Because the internet was allowing it. And I think it’s similar here, where these tools, these AI tools are not, you know, depending on what, you know, I don’t mean overgeneralized, but a lot of the AI technology capabilities are available really at very cost affordable prices, right? The small, and to your point, small and medium sized businesses can do this. It’s not something that only

37:59
the largest corporations can do. So I do think that it is opening up a world of opportunity for small and medium sized business to get in, use this technology and really leverage and get the most out of what arguably may be smaller budgets. So the title of the book is the Future Ready Brand. What’s next? Because I love the conversation around like

38:28
you this is for everyone and everyone can take advantage. And I totally agree. And I’m on board with that piece. But, you know, what insights did you get kind of of where things might go or, you know, who’s really leading the charge and what are they leading in? Like, what are the things that got you most excited maybe when in these interviews? What got me most excited was because if you think about the CMOs that I interviewed, they were really all over the board in terms of the types of businesses they represented.

38:57
Uh, a lot of them were B2B. And one of the things that I was hearing is, you know, in the world of B2B marketing, very often, not always, but very often is kind of the redheaded stepchild and me, you know, coming from a CPG background way back when, and you know, spending a lot of time B2C that, that, that concept to me is foreign, right? It’s just, we didn’t eat. You’re not a marketing driven tongue.

39:25
company. Look at the leadership, right? The C-suite are you came up through the marketing function. That’s not the case in B2B. A lot of these marketers talked about the ability of these technologies and probably most specifically AI, but really all to elevate their stature, to elevate their profile and the level of influence that they have in the C-suite and across the organization. Because all of a sudden, if they’re using this right,

39:55
Because all of a sudden they can go beyond just analytics and start getting into prediction, predictive. They own the consumer or the customer, they own the brand. if they can use this technology appropriately, they can understand how to essentially maximize share of whatever the metric may be, revenue, share of wallet. They can begin to start to own the growth agenda.

40:25
Uh, like never before. And I think, um, that’s really encouraging, right? They’re all of sudden, they’re not just a support staff with the shortest tenure in the C-suite. They’re not just, um, doing trade shows or what have you that they are actually, uh, informing strategy by the insight, by the more sophisticated insights, um, and predictive insights that they’re able to bring, which I think is kind of exciting.

40:53
something that should give every marketer hope, right? We all wanna see the marketing function advance. that’s really, I think it’s really encouraging news. And I think the other thing that we talked about too, when we were discussing the episode was the rise of health and wellness brands too, which seems to be a category that-

41:16
is getting a ton of attention and continues to grow both from a product standpoint, a service standpoint and a tech standpoint. So is that one too that you’re starting to see kind of proliferate across the board? Yes, a couple of ways. There were two themes, I’d say two themes that really emerged from a lot of my health and wellness related conversations. Again, I didn’t talk to every CMO on every subject, but those that I did speak to about health and wellness, not all of them were in

41:46
That was a free, not all of them were in the quote unquote health and wellness space, right? What they’re realizing though is that given an evolved definition, I would argue post COVID, evolved definition of wellness, right? And even just the notion, the difference between health and wellness, that there are implications for companies, right? And for brands that aren’t necessarily health brands or, know.

42:14
They’re not pharma, they’re not healthcare per se, but it is this, what role can they play at fostering better wellness and wellbeing? And when you think about it that way, that wellness is really this, it’s the totality or the sum total of physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, right? If you start to define wellness that way, you begin to see that basically any category you’re in can at least tangentially impact that.

42:42
Right? So they’re starting to think about what can we do to improve the lives or the wellbeing of our consumers, even if we’re in a seemingly non healthcare related business. Well, I feel like this has brought us full circle right back to the beginning of the conversation because where I went in my head was if it’s tied to their purpose. Yeah. It’s becoming the new definition of purpose. Right.

43:08
Yes, and so, you I love all the macro trend data too, right? And I think the brands that are smart and the CMOs that are smart, they capitalize on them, but also in more of that tool-based way, right? So they think about it not in terms of, we have to be there because it is a big trend. And if we are not, we’re in trouble. They think about it more in terms of that’s interesting. That’s data that we can pull forward. And then what is that interpretation going to look like for us? Just, and also,

43:38
Where will we not play because it will be ineffective and inauthentic if we do. Yes, I completely agree. And they’re probably for that reason. I mean, there were some CMOs who just didn’t get the connection between their business and brands and the health and wellness in this case, right. Or it just isn’t, you know, it doesn’t fight, but it’s not necessarily consistent with their purpose of the positioning, right. So to your point, you can’t force it.

44:07
you certainly don’t want to act on it or activate it if it’s not consistent with your strategy, whether that’s your purpose, your business strategy, or your brand positioning. But when it is, and whether it is, it’s something that you’re starting to think about very differently. I totally agree. And I think, though, the lesson can be, and this could be on a full spectrum of health and wellness, because if you think about brand in this

44:33
purest foundation and function like we were just talking about, it’s about eliciting that emotional connection, which is based on the other person’s wellbeing. You’re solving some sort of tension, some sort of issue that that person is facing, whether it’s in a B2C standpoint, a B2B standpoint, it doesn’t matter. So being able to dial in to what that is just helps brands be able to have a foundation that is aligned with that macro trend, but maybe not playing like,

45:03
right in it on the nose. So I encourage people to really think about it in a spectrum and how these things can be applied. So one example along those lines, you’d like an example, is I interviewed the chief marketing officer of a library test beer, right? it’s considered a pine can. That definitely makes you feel better. Yeah. when we agreed to speak, know,

45:29
I’m saying, I was talking about the different topics and chapters in the book and I asked her like in the very first one out of our mouth is I want to talk about health and wellness. And that was not what I was expecting. From a beer CMO, right? And yet it is, right? Because they’re thinking about ways, right? That different additives, right? And herbs and so forth, like melatonin, let’s say, or can have that they’re beginning to make.

45:57
beer that can actually improve your health as opposed to not denigrate it, then that’s a great example of one. mean, if they immediately go there, right, and our brand and they’re thinking about health and wellness, you’d be pretty hard pressed to say your brand category has nothing to do with health and wellness, right, if they can make the connection there. And it just shows you, I think it is about your mindset, your frame of reference that’s critical.

46:25
Well, and I think it’s an amazing example because, you know, we talk about beverages and just the beverage category in total and how massive it is. Right. But when you think about the alcohol category, not just the health portion, but just in total that they’re really competing at a much broader level. Right. Like the mocktail trend is not actually drinking alcohol. And so to your point, what else are we adding in? There’s also CBD being added into some of these.

46:53
beverages and so I think the definition is really changing and it’s super smart to not You know say oh well, we are in this space So we’re not even gonna consider for her to lean right in and tackle that topic right off the bat says that there’s the open-mindedness of Okay, let’s not shut it down right away But let’s think how this can or should or not apply to us and what that looks like Yeah, absolutely. I think it was one step further. It’s not even you know, I think the first

47:22
Inclination is, hey, we’re not as bad as you think, you know, don’t. This is something that’s far more powerful. They’re not only they’re going beyond that saying, hey, there are health benefits to drinking our alcoholic beverages, right? And it can improve your sleep. It can improve your energy. can improve your digestion. What there were. gave me a number of great examples of things that are in their new product pipeline, you know, through certain additives they have.

47:52
physical or psychological or emotional benefits that have nothing to do with getting intoxicated. What do I always say about tequila, April? It’s medicinal. think I’m to have to go have a shot after this conversation. Yeah, tequila is medicinal. That’s what I tell everybody. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I feel like we’ve been through it all. And I love the strategy conversation because I feel it’s one of people

48:21
tend to gloss over. I really love how deep we were able to go here and in the perspective you’re able to bring from the CMOs that you interviewed and then your own personal perspective from all the work that you guys do as well at Full Search. So I’m gonna ask them rapid fire questions, which I know you’re not prepared for, but this is just to the audience gets to, I know you a little bit. And then I’m gonna ask you to gonna close this out and tell everybody where to find you. So you’re ready for rapid fire? Yeah. All right. Okay. So.

48:51
Besides your own book, what are the books that you’re reading right now or podcasts you’re listening to? Well, I’m listening to your podcasts, of course. Oh, yay. Thank you. So a book, actually, I’m give you a book I’m rereading. it’s given the, it actually does relate to my book. It’s called The AI Marketing Canvas. And it’s a book that

49:17
obviously has a lot of patience for a couple of chapters in my book. interviewed the author, actually the author’s interviewed me for their book, but it really is, it’s very closely tied to a lot of the topics we talked about. What I love about it, unlike my book, is it’s very prescriptive in how to, in terms of like, how do you actually build an AI strategy for marketing competitive advantage? How do you build this roadmap to success?

49:44
Um, it’s been out a few years, but I do want to give a plug to its authors and to the book itself. It’s fantastic. So get your book to get the strategy of it all and then get that book to execute. So one, two punch. All right. Next question. One thing you want to accomplish this summer. I want to learn how to water ski. Cool. Awesome. I used to be able to, I didn’t want to, I haven’t done it since I was a kid.

50:11
I think it’d really, I was just, I don’t know what made me think of it, but I must’ve seen it on TV thinking it’d be really fun. And I need to learn how to do that again. I’m sure I’m starting from ground zero. I don’t think it’s like riding a bike. It’s so funny you say that because I just had this conversation two nights ago with someone where we were talking about, can, is it one of the things that you can do like riding a bike? That was the exact conversation. And he seemed to think I would be fine. And I don’t necessarily trust that. Yeah, no, you’re not going to, I was like 14 when I was.

50:41
So as she’s sitting here in a boot and with a sinus infection, she thinks she’s going to go water ski. Tried a tequila. Yeah, tried a tequila. And then go water ski. All right. So the last question is your favorite band, music band or music genre. I’ll go genre. mean, I’m kind of it’s giving away my age, I’m sure. But, I am a classic rock guy still, even though I’m the new

51:11
genres and I don’t only listen to it. I’m not stuck in the 70s. I still have like a soft spot for it there are just so many great bands I think that came out in that era. Big hair 80s girl right here. So I’m with you. Awesome Mitch. Thank you for letting everybody get to know you a little bit more through this whole entire conversation. And so when it ended, like I said, I was going to

51:35
Put a bow around this. Anything else that you wanted to mention that we didn’t get a chance to talk about, then also tell everybody where they can find you. And your book. So in terms of the bow, mean, we talked about one of the key themes again, which is just the potential that is in front of marketers today to really elevate their role if it isn’t already, right, and increase their sphere of influence in the organization. The other theme I want, I would be remiss if I didn’t say came out of this, is the importance of jumping in.

52:04
and getting started. All of these CMOs, it’s kind of interesting, because they’re the ones that are doing more than anybody, but they all felt like, oh my God, I’m not doing enough. I had some tell me that they didn’t even feel comfortable talking about this topic. And then when I asked them what, because they’re not doing much. And when I asked them what they are doing, I’m like, oh my God, you’re doing a ton. Let’s talk about that. They didn’t even realize it. Until we started talking and they were like, you know what? You can’t just sit by the sidelines and wait.

52:30
and see where this all shakes out. can’t just say, well, where’s AI gonna end up or well, I’m gonna wait for all of the obstacles and the pitfalls to be worked through before I get in. They’re testing and learning, even if it’s on a small scale, they’re doing something with all of these technologies because they feel like they have a window in the next year or two. If they don’t, they will be behind the curve. Right now they’re not, right? They’re with everybody else, they’re probably even ahead.

52:59
but you can’t just sit on the sidelines and wait, you oh, what Metaverse platform is going to be the winner, right? You know, no, don’t invest foolishly and spend resources carelessly, but you know, you have to learn and experiment and learn, you know, on a measured basis. So that’s just one thing I would probably leave your listeners. I love that. And where can people find you and where can they get the book? They can find me in a couple of places. As I mentioned, my firm is Full Surge.

53:29
We are a brand consultancy at Full Search, F-U-L-L-S-U-R-G-E.com. And on there, you can also find information about the book. And the book is also available pretty much anywhere online, certainly. mean, obviously Amazon, Barnes & Noble, a lot of the other online retailers are offering it, but certainly check it out on Amazon. Mitch, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it.

53:58
all the insights you’re able to bring today. Did we spark something with this episode that you want to talk about further? Reach out to us through our website, ForthRight-People.com. We can help you customize what you have heard to move your business and make sure to follow or subscribe to Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast platform!