How to Achieve Our Big Things without Teetering on the Edge of Burnout with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard: Show Notes & Transcript

In this episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, we chat with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard about achieving big things without burnout. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!

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How to Achieve Our Big Things without Teetering on the Edge of Burnout with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard

We just launched our new book! You can grab The Power of Your Personal Brand: A Playbook for Struggling Middle Managers Who Want to Do Big Things on Amazon or at ForthRight-People.com

We’ve all been there. You’re trying to achieve your Big Thing. It takes a TON of hard work & passion. Can you do it without teetering on the edge of burnout? This is a very real struggle for high performers. We tend to wear burnout as a badge of honor, but it is anything but. It causes physical, mental, and emotional issues that can be hard to recover from. Which is why it’s so crucial to achieve your Big Thing the right way. We wanted you to hear from an expert with a ton of experience in this area, so we welcomed on Dr. Rebecca Hubbard. She’s a Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Certified Kemetic Yoga Instructor, and Burnout Prevention Strategist and Speaker. Make sure to take her quiz, What’s your productivity pattern? Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• The trap of turning self-care into another goal to achieve
• Listen to the whispers before they become a shout
• April’s burnout journey: anxiety, habits, and finally flipping her days around
• What burnout actually is and how it shows up physically and mentally
• What high achievers are really afraid of

And as always, if you need help in building your Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• How to Achieve Our Big Things without Teetering on the Edge of Burnout with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard
  • [0:29] Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business
  • [0:55] Why high achievers are especially vulnerable to burnout
  • [1:54] Introducing Dr. Rebecca Hubbard, her own burnout story, and why she focuses on it
  • [3:18] 77% of people experience burnout at some point
  • [4:17] Why normalizing burnout is dangerous and what it really looks like
  • [5:39] What burnout actually is and how it shows up physically and mentally
  • [7:03] Who is most predisposed to burnout and why
  • [8:30] How gender, culture, and identity contribute to burnout vulnerability
  • [10:55] The glorification of hard work and why “outworking” everyone has a cost
  • [13:19] Simone Biles and the elite performance space rethinking the push-through mentality
  • [14:44] What high achievers are really afraid of
  • [16:39] April’s son and the early signs of perfectionism showing up at 10 years old
  • [19:55] Why over-specializing early is a mistake
  • [20:45] The survival mode trap: living every day vs. white-knuckling it
  • [22:09] Reframing 60 or 70% as accurate, not lowered expectations
  • [23:06] Anne’s reflection on honoring your own definition of optimum performance
  • [25:19] The cost of trying to be everything to everyone
  • [26:42] Interrogating why productivity is always treated as the highest value
  • [27:41] Rest doesn’t have to be productive
  • [29:34] Self-awareness before self-care, the crucial first step in burnout prevention
  • [31:25] Listen to the whispers before they become a shout
  • [32:24] April’s burnout journey: anxiety, habits, and finally flipping her days around
  • [35:38] What we can learn from the newer workforce’s refusal to burn out
  • [36:33] The trap of turning self-care into another goal to achieve
  • [39:10] Big things are a journey, not a destination
  • [41:53] Identity, sunk cost fallacy, and the fear of wasted effort
  • [43:19] Dr. Rebecca’s TEDx journey and how she set limits she was okay with
  • [45:34] Surrendering the outcome for the process and what really matters in the end
  • [51:22] How leaders inadvertently drive their teams into burnout
  • [52:45] Perfectionism in leadership is not a virtue
  • [54:14] Leaders who model overwork without realizing they’re setting the benchmark
  • [55:12] Leaders need a place where they’re not leading and can let go
  • [58:29] You have to care more about your people than yourself
  • [1:03:35] Burnout is also about ignoring too much
  • [1:04:01] Learn more about Dr. Rebecca Hubbard and make sure to take her quiz, What’s your productivity pattern?
  • Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
  • Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

What is Strategic Counsel?

Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Prepare for honest, direct, and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business.  Referred to by some listeners as an “MBA in podcast form,” this show is dense with personal stories, proven strategies contextualized by practical steps, and tools to put what you learn into action now.

Your hosts Anne Candido and April Martini are Co-Founders of ForthRight People, a leadership performance company focused on developing leaders from the inside out. They are also Authors of the book: The Power of Your Personal Brand: A Playbook for Struggling Middle Managers Who Want to Do Big Things. They thrive on engagement from listeners and welcome any show topics!  So, reach out and connect!

Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic. 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team and your business. Now let’s get to it.

00:29
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel podcast. I’m Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And today we’re going to talk about how to achieve our big things without teetering on the edge or going over the edge of burnout. This is a very real thing amongst high achievers because we tend to wear burnout as a badge of honor, but it is anything but. It can cause physical, mental, and emotional issues that can be really, really hard to recover from.

00:55
Yes, and as an Enneagram3 who used to celebrate the characteristic of being a hard charger, I can personally attest to this. Competing on number of hours worked, weeks on end of travel, too tired on the weekends to do much of anything, and as my now coach is always reminding me, I am a human being, not a human doing. And so while I consider myself recovered from burnout, I can attest that it is a very real thing. Yes, and I think this is such an important point because

01:25
What April and I always say is characteristics are neither good nor bad, right? They either move you towards your goals or away from your goals. But there are certain characteristics like being a go-getter or a hard worker or being very ambitious or a hustler or even like a people pleaser that when continually activated can lead to burnout. So for this episode, we brought on an expert who also has a lot of experience in this area and that’s Dr. Rebecca Hubbard.

01:54
So Dr. Rebecca, do you want to introduce yourself and give everybody a bit of your story? Sure. Thank you so much for having me. I also have been through my own cycles of burnout. I was a collegiate athlete and I think that my athletic identity had a lot to do with that. We can see high achievement in people who earn doctorates like myself. So I’ve always been around people who want to achieve a lot, who want to have a big impact on the environment.

02:23
around them and on other people. And I think for me, that was one of the main values that contributed to my uh burnout cycle. That reset a little bit for me with motherhood because perfectionism doesn’t have a lot of room in motherhood. Achievement doesn’t have a lot of room in motherhood. So I had to rethink some things and that kind of culminated in a TEDx talk where I really put my own story and my pieces together.

02:52
in what I think is the crux of the matter when it comes to burnout, that it’s not as simple as balancing it out with self-care. That’s a little bit deeper than that. So you didn’t get the manual from Otherhood either? No, there’s a manual. We didn’t either. He’s like, where is those manuals? Nobody seems to have gotten one. No, nothing. Yeah. Well, welcome to the club,

03:18
For sure. I’m in good company. know that’s right. Awesome. Okay. Dr. Rebecca, let’s start with just dimensionalizing the problem because burnout is a very real thing. Like you said, we’ve all experienced it. Can you tell us more about it? Absolutely. about overall 77, 77 % of people report experiencing burnout at some point in their careers or in their life. And this is from the, uh, workplace burnout survey that Deloitte conducted.

03:47
The day is a little bit old by now. It’s like 2015 is when this big survey happened, but I can’t imagine that the numbers are lower. I think maybe they’re a tad higher. So I’ll always give estimates um just to give us kind of like a scope of this. so 77 % overall of people and 84 % of millennials. So millennials are even more vulnerable to burning out. Millennials are also more likely to quit a job because they are burnt out.

04:17
So that was a really interesting finding from that survey. I know that there are a lot of ways that people can burn out. It’s such a common experience that we’ve almost normalized it and I find that really dangerous. So this is also why my outward facing work as a psychologist is very much focused on burnout. You know, I do individual therapy too, but when it comes to like things that I would want to share with many, many people with a wide audience,

04:47
is that there’s nothing pretty about burnout. And I think as a society, we need to stop accepting it as a part of the job or a part of just living here. Like we need to interrupt that process a little bit. So can you tell us a little, well, first of all, totally agree. And so glad to hear you say that because I do a lot of the coaching for us and this is a topic in that, right? And you said one-on-one and a lot of mine is one-on-one or group. So we see a ton of it.

05:14
ah But I would love if you could talk about just some strings of ah examples for people of how it might look or people that are high risk. I know we listed some in the beginning and mentioned some characteristics that people have, but just to start to ground us a little bit more in how do people identify it and what can it look like maybe that they’re not realizing it. Right, right.

05:39
We’ll start with a basic definition maybe. So burnout is the state of mental, physical, and emotional exhaustion that’s caused by chronic stress. The word chronic is really important there because stress is a part of life and nothing about life means we don’t experience stress. Like we need to be able to respond in stressful situations. It’s a good thing. Stress can also be really motivating. And sometimes we get stressed out about the good stuff. So we’re not talking about a stress-free life. That’s not a thing.

06:09
But chronic stress can have an impact on our physical health. It can often lead to uh heart problems, fatigue, uh inflammation that can wreak havoc in lots of different ways. So it impacts the body in those ways because burnout also can impact our sleep patterns and we know how important sleep is for a healthy body.

06:34
It also can look very similar to depression and anxiety when we look at the emotional and the mental ways that burnout can show up. So these are things like brain fog, maybe either being more irritable than usual or being completely numbed out, like not finding a lot of care for the things that you usually either enjoy or really care about. Those are some signs of burnout. uh We also see folks who

07:03
kind of, especially if your profession involves helping other people, caring less about helping those people or the problems that you’re presented with, that’s a big red flag for burnout. So these are, it can show up in a lot of ways. And then often it’s a precursor for very serious health conditions, either physically or mentally and emotionally. Dr. Rebecca, are there certain types of people who are kind of predispositioned for burnout?

07:33
Yeah, so I call these things vulnerabilities to burnout because none of them cause burnout, right? Like there’s no characteristic you have that automatically leads to you burning out. And when we look at that statistic of like 77 % of people experience this, there are a lot of characteristics that could potentially contribute to burnout. So I know you mentioned high achievers, perfectionism is a big one, but we can also think about identity.

08:01
when it comes to cultural identities. So women might tend to burn out because we’ve talked about, you know, motherhood or like other roles that we carry that have like this always on kind of approach to the role or a self-sacrificial role that’s praised by society and, you know, rewarded with praise and like accolades. But also, you know, men, for example, are also

08:30
conditioned to overwork where their worth is tied to oh what they produce and what they contribute to society as an example, or the money that they make is often also used as a marker for worth by men. So your gender identity, culturally speaking, also a lot of folks who identify as Black, for example, have been conditioned to seek Black excellence, have been conditioned to seek achievement,

09:00
to compensate for the way that racism impacts the way that they are treated in society. So that’s another example. Athletes are an example. Gifted individuals are also an example of people who are vulnerable to burning out. Your profession, especially when it comes to workplace burnout, is one of the biggest risk factors. So anyone who works in healthcare is probably particularly vulnerable to burnout, but there are also other…

09:28
uh industries like education or finance or tech, where either we have this always on and high demand of work effort, or we have a high level of bureaucracy that also correlates with burnout very often. And again, that like professions with high stakes, I think in healthcare, like if you work in medicine, it is actually a life or death issue sometimes.

09:57
type of pressure um contributes to burnout. So when I’m working with like small groups or individuals, I think it’s really important not to focus too much on any one of those identities or characteristics, but to look at your individual whole picture. What are some of the things that contribute to why an individual might burn out? Can even be being the oldest sibling in your family, for example.

10:28
I’m raising my hand. The oldest of five. mean, I’m the oldest of two. of five. That makes you vulnerable, you know, the responsible one, usually the one who’s in charge of the other ones, you know. the one nobody ever had to worry about. Didn’t have to worry about you because you got it covered. That makes you vulnerable to burnout, you know, so it’s very, it’s very broad for what can make us vulnerable to overworking and over identifying with.

10:55
the things that lead to overworking. Yeah, I think this is a really interesting point that I want to hone in on for a few minutes, because you said a lot of really, I think things that just totally hit me as I’m rewinding through my professional career. I really want to unpack a few of them. One is this whole concept of hard work. And when we put it in the context of big things, mean, big things being goals and ambitions that we

11:24
want to achieve in order to feel some level of joy or fulfillment. These things can be so monumentally like desirable that we’re really pretty much do anything for them in some cases, right? And we think that a lot of times it’s very short term. like, if I could just put my head down and work really hard for the next like six months, one year, two years, I’ll get that promotion and then I’ll be able to name that. Or if I could just buckle down and I can just like,

11:54
know, grind away at this like thing that I don’t like necessarily, or if I can put on this persona for the next like several months and convince everybody that, you know, I’m the person for this job or whatever that is in people’s heads, it starts to kind of like become a monster to some effect of like, like this is the expectation of how I get from point A to point B and the hard work is glamorized. I I mean, especially in the athletic.

12:22
I mean, how many times have we heard what was it? It’s either Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. It’s like, shoot a thousand baskets before they practice even starts. They were the first one on the court, last one to leave. It’s always something that’s like, if I outwork you, somehow I’m going to be better than you. And that is a philosophy, that is a culture. And so it feels like it’s so counter to this whole concept of what we’re talking about, about avoiding burnout. But people…

12:50
believe, I believe they believe and we’ve heard this and we’ve heard this through our coaching that if they don’t work hard, they’re not going to achieve their big thing. So how do you rectify that Dr. Rebecca? How do you get people to like realize that this path isn’t necessarily the most fortuitous path in order to get to their big thing? Great question. And I’m glad we get to talk about athletes in this. wasn’t quite sure how that would land with you or your audience. as an athlete myself, it really

13:19
drives the points home. So I think even in that elite performance space, people are calling more attention to the dilemma that that achievement oriented and that like pushing through limits attitude can cause, you know, think about Simone Biles or people or big athletes, elite athletes with incredible talent and capacity, who could have pushed through, absolutely could have who constantly override fear.

13:49
You can’t do gymnastics if you can’t override fear. Like it’s not, you know, it’s not a natural way to move in the world. And she said, no, I can’t compete safely right now. I’m going to take a step back. Got a ton of backlash for that. Did it anyway, came back and did great. I mean, I think this is, this is a new thing that we’re trying to undo. So these stories are gaining traction and more and more people are seeing themselves in that.

14:17
quest for finding a more balanced way to approach things. When I’m working with people who are high achieving, which I’ve ended up with quite a few of them, my tagline when I first started my practice was be your best. So everybody who wanted to be their best came running, is good. But through all of those stories, I’ve learned that a lot of folks are worried about losing their edge. They’re worried about

14:44
If I take too many breaks, if I take it easy too often, then I’m not going to be great anymore. And I have found it helpful to see what we’re talking about as far as like paying more attention to your capacity and assessing your capacity accurately is a good thing. It protects long-term efficiency. It protects long-term outcomes.

15:11
It protects all the other parts of you and your human life. That this go-getter pushing through attitude has its place when it’s contained, when it has lines around it, when it’s very clear, I’m going to push through for this competition in this moment, but that that’s not an attitude for practice or that that’s not an attitude when it’s not necessary, that you have to deliberately choose

15:40
this attitude when it is most appropriate and to also deliberately choose the approach of, am going to give 70 % today because that is what’s required. That is what’s going to get us, you know, still move us forward. But the idea that you can always give 110%, that is one we need to eliminate. You need to choose when it’s time to give 110 % and then not give 110%.

16:08
for other times, you know, that accuracy only happens when we assess our needs accurately and then learn to assess our capacity accurately. In my experience, high achievers respond better to thinking of it that way because we are protecting the thing that you care about. We want to protect your ability to continue to do the work that is important to you. That is what this is about. It is not about like you not doing your thing.

16:39
Yeah. So, okay. I have a lot of things to say and I’m going to try not to talk for too long. say, we might as well just sit back, relax a little bit. I started getting antsy. was like, oh, can’t wait to talk. Okay. So first I want to continue on the sports thing. Um, but then, and I want to go back to something you said about the next getting to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. So first I want to acknowledge and appreciate the fact that you said, you know, we talk about this now and we have people like Simone Biles who

17:08
ton of backlash, you know, we all know that story, but was brave enough to stand up and say it. And interestingly, I was telling both of you before we got on here and knew I was on spring break last week. And some of these characteristics are showing up already in my son. He’s a perfectionist. He’s a people pleaser. He really cares about what people think. And he’s 10. And he’s a baseball player. My dad was a college

17:37
Pitcher, he is a pitcher. There’s so many amazing threads here, right? Of how well this can go, how amazing this can be. Last summer on the ball field, he had a couple of anxiety attacks because of exactly what you said. He was pushing himself too hard, putting too much pressure on himself, trying to hold himself to this level of competition and perfection.

17:59
That took a while for us to unpack and get to, but really it speaks a lot to what you were just saying. He didn’t have the tools to understand that it’s not, if I have a strike, I’ve done something wrong. If I’m pitching and I’m not pitching all strikes, something is wrong, right? And so we’ve been doing a lot of work and on the vacation, my dad gets out with him every morning for 20 or 30 minutes and they throw the ball and they have all these life discussions and I can only imagine, I only hear a smidge, right? Part of the good part.

18:28
But part of the conversation my dad and I had while we were down there was making sure that he still loves it first, helping him build these tools to understand where the pressure works for you and where that stress can be good, like you said, but then also making sure that he has plenty of other outlets because that sort of obsessive nature of perfectionism, right? There are days where I’ll see him out there throwing the ball and realize, mm-mm, he’s been out there for too long.

18:56
we’ve got to move that behavior to something else. We have been playing volleyball right now in addition to baseball to remind him of the fun of the sports, right? Where that can be your serious thing, but here’s another outlet and guess what? You’re not that good because it’s your first year, right? And really recognizing all of that. So young kid, but that really spoke to me what you said about the athlete piece. And I’m proud that we talk about this in today’s society. I’m also proud that my 69 year old father who is of a different generation.

19:25
can get on board with, you you don’t just throw that ball all day long. He’s having conversations about repetitions versus discipline, but also making sure that it’s not always this high pressure situation. another example, just to kind of speak to what you said, but I thought it was relevant to this part of the conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. So glad to hear that your son has folks around him that are trying to balance this out. You know, I think that is a tremendous benefit. Yeah. Doing something light.

19:55
At 10, it is a mistake to over specialize. know, think folks in sports medicine will tell you that. The book outliers will tell you that. Yes, yes. Definitely needs to like use. I mean, in some ways it’s a metaphor, but it’s also very practical. He has to use the other parts of his body, right? He should probably learn some things where he’s using footwork and like doing things that aren’t so heavy on the arm.

20:22
all kinds of ways that we can learn from that example. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then, okay, and I’ll be quick on this other side, but I wanted to talk too about our coaching clients. So this whole idea of get to the next presentation next few months, your point, Rebecca, about always on, I come across this all the time. It’s a lot of females. We’ve talked about the propensity for that and mothers.

20:45
But it just brings to mind how many conversations I’ve had in one in particular lately where there’s a client and her husband’s a military nurse, which takes him away for chunks of time, right? And then there’s three small children. And there was very much this kind of mode of survival for a while. And just within this last period of time, we got to a point where we had the conversation about living.

21:11
living every day, not white-knuckling it every day, not just getting to a month from now, all of those types of things, and realizing that there was no loss of edge. And actually, a lot more clarity came out when it was, every morning, what are the things that must happen? And some days, that’s all that’s gonna happen. And if something else happens, great. However, our expectations have to come down, but also the realization that her 60 % at work

21:40
with some people’s 100. Yeah. Right. And so all these kind of pieces and parts to change the mindset to say, we’re not just going to put a countdown on the fridge and hope we make it. We’re going to break down every single day and make sure that there are successes that are maybe small in her mind. Right. But really tremendous proof of living every day instead of just surviving every day. So that was the other part I wanted to make.

22:09
Absolutely. And I think when we take a look at our language with this, like bringing things down to like 70 or 60 % is not down as unless it’s accurate, right? Like it’s accurate in a time when like you’re solo parenting and you got three littles, like this is the accurate expectation for today, not the lowered or not the, you know. That’s perfect. Yes. Here we’re right. I love it. is sweet spot.

22:38
Because that also protects this feeling of failure from wanting to down regulate or from shifting into a mode that’s not this 100 % high achieving mode. Well, I think the other part of that, as you guys are talking, I’m processing and I’m reliving some of my previous experiences. therapy session for Anne, thanks, Rebecca. Free of charge.

23:06
I don’t know, you might get a bill after we’ll see. But I think there’s something about honoring what our level of optimum performance is. Right. We tend to define it based on what everybody else thinks it should be. I mean, I was one of those people, like if I wasn’t working, then I wasn’t doing anything. Right. I could always be doing something. And I mean, I used to that was a PNG world that was in our business. I mean, it used to drive April crazy because there was always something

23:34
that I felt like I could be doing or should be doing in order to make whatever our goals were happen quicker, faster, more predictably. And it was sabotaging a lot of what we were trying to do because it wasn’t providing the time, the space for things to grow appropriately. And there’s so many.

23:57
know, sayings that go with, know, um, you know, go slow to go fast and all those sorts of things. And you kind of want to roll your eyes and be like, yeah, right. Whatever us high achievers just, have one speed, but there’s a lot of truth to that. And that’s taken me a very long time to really recognize about myself that giving like one first acknowledging what is optimum performance for me. I mean, I need eight hours of sleep. I need to work out five to six days a week.

24:22
I can work three hours at a time and that’s all I can work. Then my brain kind of shuts down and I could tell I’m not at my best. And, you know, honoring that about myself, I get more done, I’m more productive and the work is so much better when I actually am honoring that about myself versus somebody else’s definition. And then an entrepreneur should be working 20 hours a day. If you’re not working 20 hours a day, what are you doing? You know, those sorts of things. But I also think,

24:49
It’s the whole energy, protecting your energy along with that optimum performance. think that is like my markers. Like, what’s my energy level feel like and where do I want to put that energy and where is it going to be the best impact for that energy at this moment in time? And then the other thing that somebody told me and this was a long time ago, my PNG career, and it’s really stuck with me. And I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say about this is like,

25:19
There’s only five things you can be really well. And a lot of times we try to be more than that. Like we try to be something for everybody. We try to excel in every single aspect of all of our identities, right? So you have to choose. Like if I’m gonna be a mom really well, I’m gonna be a wife really well, I’m gonna be an employee really well, I’m going to be a business owner really well. But okay, I’ve gotten like not four or five. That means I might not be the best daughter.

25:47
I might not be the best sister. Like some things have to kind of take a backseat because I can’t be everything everybody wants of me all the time, which again, for me, a burnout thing. Because sometimes I feel like, you know, in that kind of this kind of cases, I was just put on this earth to serve everybody else’s agenda and not my own. So I put that in the context of our conversation, but leading to this bigger question of.

26:14
How can achievers strive towards their big things while avoiding burnout? Like what are the tips, the tools, the tricks, the mindset shifts? Like what do you give people to help them kind of reframe burnout tendencies, I’ll just call them, or the vulnerabilities you said? Yeah, I think this might be a little uncomfortable for folks to hear, but I think we really need to interrogate why

26:42
Outcomes and productivity is always the most important thing. Why does everything that we do have to serve that? I have come to believe that we have been conditioned to see those things at the high, as the highest value that that’s not designed by us. Like our human bodies aren’t set up for that to be the highest value. People who live in cultures where that’s not the highest value are generally pretty happy. And when we look at, when we ask people.

27:11
around here, if they’re happy, they’re not so happy. So I think we really need to look at why is productivity always the outcome. Even when we say things like, your rest is productive. No, it’s not. It’s not supposed to be. Active rest, when you’re in the gym and like your trainer tells you, we’re doing active rest, I’m like, then that’s not rest. uh But it’s also like, the rest isn’t the purpose of rest, the purpose of joy, the purpose of like,

27:41
doing things that aren’t productive is not so that you can be more productive. The purpose of that is to like be a person. The purpose of a lot of the things that we’re talking about is to like enjoy the ride, to like experience your whole self more in your life. That doesn’t always result in like a project or an outcome or anything that you can even point to. It’s not even always tangible.

28:10
And we have, I think in our language has been infiltrated by a lot of corporate language that then we try to apply to very human things that are not robotic, that are not mechanistic, that are way more fluid, that require more flexibility from us than we would maybe like, than we’re maybe comfortable with.

28:36
But I’m telling you, I think we’re not comfortable with that because we’ve been taught not to be comfortable with that. So, you know, with your with your 10 year old son, April, like he still has a chance to learn how to do this, how to be comfortable just hanging out, just and not feeling a pressure to perform or for everything to serve the thing that maybe he cares about the most right now, which is baseball.

29:06
It’s okay to care about that, but like everything isn’t designed to serve that one outcome. So if we can undo that, I think it leaves room to be more of ourselves. So I think that’s more like my response to your, to the first part of your question, Anne. So what can we do like for us, you know, I’m in my forties, like I’m not 10, I’m not gonna be able to unlearn this with any type of speed, but.

29:34
It does, it Self-care is a big part of it. Before self-care comes self-awareness of your needs. A big red flag of burnout is being disconnected from your needs. You know that, that Deloitte workplace survey that we were talking about at the top of the show. Another stat from that is that 66 % of people will skip a meal for work stress or work pressure. I believe it. That’s insane.

30:04
That’s a huge red flag. Food? Food, water, shelter? Like, are we really denying ourselves something as basic as a meal or a snack? Now, of course, I know, especially folks in healthcare, emergency medicine, like all of these places where like, no, there’s a real reason to skip a meal. And even then…

30:28
with the med students who I work with or like the nurses, we’re talking about granola bars in the pocket. You still need to find a way to respond to your needs. With the teachers who don’t use the bathroom, we gotta find a way for you to go use the bathroom. And it starts with knowing that that’s even something that you need. Because over time, when we practice ignoring that or minimizing all like,

30:56
Well, I didn’t get any sleep last night, but I’m still going to work today as if I had slept my eight hours. Well, that ignoring over time leads to us not even noticing it, not even knowing that you’re hungry, not even knowing that you actually probably need a nap or not knowing these very basic things about like, my shoulders are really tight or like my back hurts a little bit. We don’t know until it’s like really loud. I, I’m.

31:25
you know, talking about phrases that we hear all the time, listen to the whispers, it might be a really quiet whisper. And if you are able to respond to the whisper, you are doing burnout prevention. So this is, that’s a crucial step is like when you’re, if you’re asking yourself the question, like, oh, what, do I need or what’s going on in my body? Even if you’re not immediately, you don’t have the habits or the systems in place to respond to it.

31:54
It’s still good to know. It starts with knowing what you need. Yeah, I’ll go back to my telling of myself at the beginning where I said my coach had to give me the expression, stop being a human doing and be a human being. And we’ve done a lot of work over the course of the past year because I’m a very bad sitter with myself. I love other people. I’m great when I’m with other people. All the other stuff fades away. I, you know, I just love people. I’m very extroverted that way.

32:24
But I wasn’t always taking the time to take care of myself, to your point. I would use that as a distraction and say, I’ll get to that later, right? Which caused my anxiety to fire in a big way a couple of years ago and have to stop because it got real loud, all the things you’re talking about and work through that to provide better tools. And just recently, I was spending some time with her and Anne and I operate as each other’s coaches too and various conversations and…

32:53
spent some time thinking about the fact that, okay, my life has entered another phase again. My kids are 10 and seven, so they’re not at the stage where you have to like follow them around, right? But they are at a critical stage where they wanna talk, especially the 10 year old, he’s always up here, right? They need that sort of attention and I need to have the energy to provide that to them. And so I’ve been working to flip my days so that I do all the things I need to do for myself.

33:22
when they are not here in order to be present when they are. And the other benefit of that is I’m far better with the clients. I mean, the same thing that Anne said, like my level of patience, my level of tolerance, my level to be present, my level being able to listen and feedback and kind. I mean, it’s like a complete game changer. And the other thing I will say is,

33:45
when you go on vacation, which is always a kind of nervous place for me, because I’ve built some really good habits, but those don’t always happen, right? Everybody’s there, we were with another family, my parents are there, the friend’s parents are there. Every morning on that trip, I walked by myself on the beach. And there were days where I had to tell some semblance of the group that I was going alone in the other direction. Now, my friend is a really good friend. She knows me and had to tell her daughter, like, she’ll be back, she’ll hang with us later, right? But I think it is

34:15
To your point about the whispers and the paying attention and the hearing phase, as someone who ran, ran, ran, ran, cared about everybody else, achieved all the projects for a really long time, I’m still learning not to knee-jerk into that, but I feel like a totally different person, completely different person. And then pair that with the burnout in jobs and with the people even surrounding me on the trip and the amount of…

34:43
times, not to tell on people, but spent working or on calls, but also things that weren’t helping or wanting them to, things they wanted to do, right? Like for me to review this podcast episode when I’m there, I like it. So I do it and I do it in a time when I have 20 minutes or whatever and it’s fine. I don’t know. I think what you said just really spoke to me around paying attention before it’s too late. And when I put my coaching hat on again, a lot of it is undoing because we have learned all of these things for all of these years.

35:11
that now we’re having to learn are not actually the way. And in a lot of cases, I think we have to swing completely in the opposite direction, which is I think what makes it really hard for people. Absolutely. Including me. Yeah. And I think it also makes it hard when you see, think a lot of the, I don’t want, struggles, people talk about the newer workforce as they’re like, I’m not burning out. Yes.

35:38
I’m gonna kick my legs up. Like lot of people see that as, know, laziness or lack of motivation. And surely that could be part of it. But I also think it’s a strong swing in the other direction, which is necessary for us to find the middle, right? So there’s things, there are a lot of things we can learn from the folks who are like, no, I’m not burning out. It’s five, I’m out of here. You know, like who are like really intent on that.

36:04
bringing those folks to the point where like we can figure out like, okay, let’s choose when it makes sense not to go home at five. Right. Exactly. When does it make the most sense to like push a little bit harder? Not as your new normal, not as a persistent type of effort, but like we want access to our ability to do that. It just can’t be our, our always. I think, and you also reminded me of another very common pitfall is to

36:33
especially for high achievers, if they’re approaching their self care, like it’s another goal to obtain, we missed an opportunity, right? So if you look at what do you think of as self care and it’s go to the gym, go to therapy, do the, know, if you think about like, what do you do for self care? A lot of folks will answer with very active things. Not wrong. It’s not wrong.

37:03
But we have to balance that out with things that that seem like nothing. What do you do for self care? Sometimes I sit on the couch in silence.

37:15
I’m not even meditating. I’m just sitting there. You know, like that sounds wild. That can maybe be really uncomfortable, but like the absolute leisure is really important. Hobbies that aren’t monetized or like turn into this new thing to accomplish are really important. Doing something you’re not good at and not trying to get better at it, wild for folks.

37:44
really important. So, you your, son’s volleyball example, like, you’re not trying to get on the volleyball team. You’re just trying to have a good time while you’re doing it. You know, that’s still pretty active, but I think for a 10 year old who probably also has more energy than we do, I would say that counts. Yeah, there’s a couple of things I want to, uh, to hone in on. One is I’m going to tell on April is like, cause when you were telling me when you were just saying about like,

38:13
taking something that’s supposed to be leisure and having to make it a project. April’s supposed to be doing this vision board for herself. vision board is like, you cut things out and you pull things from the internet. You put it together and it’s messy. it’s like, racial labels like, nope, I have to have it exactly right. It has to be pretty. So she’s spent like months just planning this thing to make sure that it actually looks exactly like it’s supposed to.

38:42
versus yeah, so. I thought that was just funny. Yeah, it still only has like six things on it. Yeah, because she had to the right the right things to put on her vision board. It can’t just be anything that she puts on there. So I just April tell on me later. So I mean, we have like a little score going on. I we’re all we’re all we’re all works in progress. We’re all working. That was why I was struggling when you said that. But there was two other things too I wanted to like hone in on.

39:10
One is, and you said this and I want to make a point of it, that the whole obsession we have about the outcome, I think that’s why a lot of people, how a lot of people think about big things too. They think about it as a destination. They think about it as a specific moment in time versus a certain being of ourselves, right?

39:31
So I remember when I was at P &G and I mean, my big thing is I wanted this promotion so badly, so badly. mean, everything was just heads down working towards this promotion. I’m like, I’m going to get this promotion. And then one day I woke up and I looked around and I was like, if I get promoted, I’m going to have a job like my boss. I don’t want that job. I don’t want that job at all. I want to have this and I want to work on this and I want to have this kind of flexibility.

39:59
That became my big thing then I wanted to have a new experience that brought these different things into my into my life. I totally left that was when I was in our day I left R and D and went to and to PR because I was like I I don’t want that job every like you’re crazy you spent 10 years in R and D you’re crazy why would you leave now and I’m like because I woke up and realized I don’t really want to be promoted here I don’t want to go down the career path so.

40:25
There is an interesting thing about when you release the outcome a little bit and you kind of think about why do I want that outcome? What is it going to deliver for me that I think that I’m not getting now? You might find that your big thing looks very, very different than what you initially thought. Because I thought the promotion was going to be me flexibility. I get to run my own team the way I wanted to. I was going to have direction on the strategy of the business. And I looked over and I’m like, you’re my boss, how’s that any of that? She’s stuck in the middle of

40:55
upper management and us. like, she doesn’t have any of that. I’m like, where am I going to get that then? And that’s where I like it totally changed my direction. So I think that’s a really important point. And I want people to really think about why that big thing is there a big thing that they’re so like honed in on because it makes it may help you realize that something different. So then when you’re on the journey, you can be more mindful of these other things that kind of come into your, your world that may be

41:24
kind of nudging you down a different path that you totally ignore because you’re just so blindedly focused on this one thing. And then also as a second part is the whole idea of identity. So a lot of times, and I mean, I’m 50, I developed an identity around a lot of these characteristics. It is very hard to undo, very hard to undo to the point where I’m like, am I going to lose my edge? Am I going to get lazy? Am I going to just be apathetic to everything that’s going on in the world?

41:53
And I’m still in that process of learning about myself and trying to undo some of those things because they’re not serving me in this part of my life now. And that is a very common thing. And I want people to hear that too, because I thought that was like, I could see why people talk about midlife crisis is because I’m like, oh my God, everything that I built in the first half of my life is not serving me in the second half of my life. What the hell did I spend the first half of my life doing? Right. that, that can, you can boil that down into

42:23
even like a short, like three year work stint. I’m like, I just spent three years of my life doing this in order to get this. And it’s not what I expected or it’s not like serving me now. So just sharing all of that again, because this is Anne’s therapy moment and just to kind of get your reactions um about everything that I said. My heart goes out to you because I, you know, I hear how

42:50
how hard on yourself you are in some ways too. So just wanna lead with that. Thank you. I think what you’re saying about like, know, in this outcome focused culture, productivity focused culture, hustle culture, we are not well versed in even assessing how we want to achieve those things. The how is always about like, well, how do we get there as opposed to, no,

43:19
what’s going to happen to me while I’m getting there. How I achieve this thing matters. Is my marriage going to fall apart in the process? Cause maybe I don’t want that. Maybe that’s important to me and relationships require investment and time and work. I’ll use my TEDx as an example, because it was a big goal I set for myself. I felt really passionate about um the story that I wanted to tell. And I don’t know what you know about the process, but it’s a lot of applying.

43:49
You know, it’s a lot and I got through two rounds and now it’s as far as I got. So it’s really, I mean, it’s no joke. And my son was very young, like under two, I think when I started the process. So I was like, I am not applying to places I can’t drive to. If I can’t get in to any of the talks that are in driving distance, I’m not going. It’ll just have to wait for another time because.

44:18
you know, I was nursing, like, I don’t want to be away from him for that long. Like that feel, it didn’t feel right for the way that I was mothering. It didn’t feel right for that phase of life. So I’m like, I’m going to keep working. I’m going to keep applying. And I was okay with not getting it if it wasn’t going to be with this caveat.

44:38
It was not an at all cost. It was like, I’m going to try. I’m going to give it my best capacity that I have available for this. But that has limits, limits that I didn’t have before because 30 year old me could have gone anywhere. I’m originally from Germany. I want to play basketball. I’m moving to the U S like the idea of like not.

45:03
being able to like leave a derivable region was a big constraint for me as someone who like will go anywhere if it’s for an opportunity that I care about. the, but how, when we start to care about how we get there, are the, are the relationships we care about intact while we get there? Is our health intact while we get there? You know, this, this is not, and then, then sometimes surrendering the outcome for the process.

45:34
is feels like a tremendous sacrifice, but when you really think about it, our health and our relationships are the things that old people talk about the most. They don’t talk about what they were able to accomplish in their job. They say like, oh, I wish I would have worked less. That’s what all of them say. I was right up on the edge because I, after one of my burnout situations, personally, I was diagnosed with a thyroid condition and it wasn’t serious enough where it was, I mean, I’m alive, I’m here now.

46:03
But it was serious enough for me to say, well, if I don’t have that, I don’t have anything else. every decision from then on was filtered through, is it gonna be okay for my health? Is it gonna be okay for my relationships? And I’m not saying that that means that your work outcomes can never matter. I wanna make sure that that feels really clear, that it’s definitely about a balance and that sometimes you can be in a phase of life where work is…

46:32
the most important thing, but there will always be other things to balance that out with. The second part of your question about how our identities get wrapped up in this sense of wasted time maybe, like, well, this sunk cost fallacy that we apply to our effort, right? Like I put so much effort into this and now I’m not gonna do anything with it. That’s also, uh I think, a result of a productivity focused culture.

47:03
Right? That if that all of our efforts have to lead to an outcome that linearly follows those efforts, we don’t have to adhere to that. Your efforts don’t have to result in a culminating event or have to all neatly line up. That’s for machines. That’s for AI. That’s for robots. As people, we have the freedom to meander, to switch careers, to change our minds.

47:31
to do something that doesn’t match up with who you were when you were 16 because you changed, you experienced something that informed your next decision. And that’s all we can ever do is make a decision based on the situation we’re in right now. What do you know about yourself, your values, your capacity now? For me, it’s definitely different than it was in my 20s. Like the decisions I make now are not the same, nor should they be. I think

48:01
I have no interest in making decisions like a 20 year old. Like, why would I do that? And I also don’t think a 20 year old should make decisions like me. We’re in completely different situations. So honoring where you are in your life and honoring what you’ve learned from your experience is to me an act of self love and self respect to say, but I know better. So I’m gonna do something else.

48:30
Yeah, I mean, I love first that you said it doesn’t have to always lean personal. It can be professional at different phases, right? Because I think that is huge. And we see a lot of people sacrificing professionally sometimes for family or what other people want or all of those things. So totally appreciate there’s different times and seasons for all the things. But the other part that I think is worth emphasizing is that it’s okay to change your mind.

48:59
because as someone whose identity was tied for a lot of years to my professional career, and probably a decade where I was like, I don’t want kids, to be the cliche that woke up on my 30th birthday and started crying because I suddenly wanted children and it didn’t feel like a choice anymore. You can see how much of a control freak I am. But to be able to embrace that, took me a while to process and internalize, but then shift.

49:28
and be able to shift many times since in all these different phases of life. I mean, for a long time, I thought I wanted to take over an agency and realized actually, no, Sam was small. I think similar to you under two. And I was looking around and I was like, they’re giving me all the flexibility in the world. We had a lot of female leadership, but the flexibility I wanted was never gonna work in the environment I was in. And it was actually an unfair ask.

49:58
And so, you know, for me to go to leadership and be like, hi, I’m leaving, gonna build my own thing, was kind of a, like, what do you mean? You were kind of in the running here, right? And I was like, yeah, I just don’t think the way this is working is gonna work for me anymore. And so I think it is really important for people to hear that, especially the hard chargers and the high achievers, if you put yourself on a path, it’s okay to take detours or change the path or make different choices because…

50:26
That is part of the life experience to pay attention to what’s going on around you and then say, oh, wait, this actually isn’t working for me. And then figure out why and then make different decisions. Right. It goes back to that accurate self assessment, right? Like, are you operating off of what you knew about yourself five years ago? It’s time to check in. Maybe it still fits. Maybe it doesn’t. Absolutely. And the accuracy will serve you for sure. Yeah, I love that.

50:55
I want to just shift gears just slightly right before we wrap up, because I think it’s really important to speak to the leaders for a second. We’ve talked a lot about it. on track, Anne. See? Yeah. I mean, this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I could continue to talk like this, but I know I need to shut myself down. Like I tell April sometimes, I’m shutting myself down here for a second for the betterment of the episode. And really just like I want to.

51:22
to focus on leaders because we talked a lot about what we can personally do. But a lot of times we feel compelled into things or we feel like it’s not our decision based on leaders and their leadership styles. So Dr. Rebecca, I’d if you talk a little bit about like from a leadership standpoint, what are leadership styles? What are leadership characteristics that inadvertently send teams into burnout? And how can leaders

51:50
change themselves in order or they change the way that they lead in order to avoid this. Yeah, I’m really happy that this is part of the conversation too, because if we know that burnout also has a lot of systemic contributions, our leaders are at the forefront of creating environments that either are conducive to finding that balance or environments that are counter creating that balance. So

52:19
really important to think through what this means for leadership. And a lot of what we’ve already talked about, I think applies, right? That a leader in whatever role they occupy, investigating these things in themselves, like where am I when it comes to perfectionism, for example, which is a big contribution to burnout. We think that we’re just being perfectionist about

52:45
ourselves and maybe the outcomes we’re expecting from our team, but there’s no way that perfectionism in a leader doesn’t infiltrate the way that systems are designed or expectations are communicated. em It’s going to be in there. And unless leaders investigate this in themselves and let go of perfectionism being a good thing, I think that’s really important personal journey for leaders to be on.

53:15
that we sometimes say it almost similar to what we’ve talked about with burnout being like, oh yeah, burnout is like just, you know, this part of living in these times or yeah, you know, I’m a little bit of a perfectionist, but ha ha, it’s not funny. Perfectionism is dehumanizing. It is against what we need for a long-term process. If all you care about is what’s going to happen next week, perfectionism will get you there.

53:44
But if you are interested in building anything that lasts longer than that, we have to think about long-term and perfectionism is not the road long-term. So that’s one of the things. I also think leaders tend to model overwork sometimes without realizing it and using that as a benchmark or an expectation. I’m only asking you to do what I am doing myself, right?

54:14
In general, also an integrity move. So I can appreciate that about that stance. But once again, investigating within yourself as a leader, where is that drive to overwork coming from? Which of your, I know you guys use the word characteristics, but like which of your features, identities, what part of your history, where are these, where did you get these messages that overwork in a very dehumanizing way is virtuous?

54:44
Like, why is this a good thing long-term? Who taught you that? And do you actually agree with that? Some people will say yes, but I’m a big advocate for knowing where you’re operating from and then making a real choice as opposed to being on autopilot. Lastly, I would say when it comes to leaders, an ability to be a little more vulnerable.

55:12
whether that’s within the work context or like some other safe place in your life to like allow the veneer of perfectionism or like achievement to be something that you can let go somewhere in your life. Leaders are very rarely only leaders in one space. If you’re a leader at work, you’re also the head of the PTA, you’re also doing this thing, you’re also like in charge of the finances at home, like it’s rare that

55:40
someone with leadership qualities is only doing that in one place. So we need to make sure that leaders have a place where you’re not leading and where you can fall apart a little bit, experience leisure, let go. That’s where we can interrupt that process and hopefully find a way to like dig through where that achievement process is coming from. I could go a lot of ways here, Anne, but I know you’re trying to wrap up, so I won’t.

56:10
But the one thing I will say that just struck me as you were talking and as we’re finishing this out is I think that leaders are under the same pressure. And you said this, Dr. Rebecca, like a lot of what we talked to about the individual pertains to the leadership piece as well. And I would just build to say making sure that as a leader, yes, you’re doing the self work, but you’re also looking at the organization and deciding what type of leader you want to be.

56:40
regardless of what kind of those expectations are that have been set. Because in our experience and with a lot of our coaching clients, what tends to happen is there’s a culture that’s not healthy. And the leader is trying to figure out, like it’s layers of pressure then, right? How do I show up based on what I know the culture to be and the expectations around me? How do I show up for myself and how do I show up for my team? So even more reason.

57:07
to do all the work we talked about today so that you don’t experience burnout and your people don’t, but you’re really being true to who you could be on your best day, not just being a soldier where you are in your organization. Even though I know high achievers, again, speaking from experience, we’re really good at that. So learn from that and make sure that you are showing up how you want to, not just how you think you should. Oh, I love how you said that. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s a lot of…

57:36
a lot of different ways that this shows up are a lot of different characteristics that can really show up in behaviors and actions that could lead to burnout of teams. But I think it all comes back to the one common one common one for a leader. And that’s they don’t want to look bad. So usually that seems to be the theme of whatever the behavior and action is, whether it’s

58:01
the perfectionism or the overwork or the inability to maintain some sort of rules of engagement, a chronic state of everything’s an emergency. mean, I could go on and on about all the ways that it was operated in or under a PNG world, but it all came back to one thing is that leader just didn’t want to look bad. And I’ve always said this, and it’s somewhat controversial that if you want to be a leader of people,

58:29
whether it’s in a position that you chose to be a manager of people or not, you have to care more about the people than you care about yourself. That is the only way you’re going to achieve a highly effective team. you trump the way everybody else operates, feels, shows up in pursuit of your own personal ambitions, you will never have a highly effective team because your team will never operate in the maximum amount of

58:59
ability that they can because they’re not going to be an optimal state kind of going back to that conversation. They’ll never be allowed to operate their optimal state. So I say that I’ll give some space. If I said something controversial, I don’t feel like I could just shut it off and say, well, let’s just not close out. Nobody can react to what I said. So I’ll give you a second to react if you had any thoughts there about that. Sure. And I think you’re right about the concern about image or like

59:28
how people look, this work that we’re talking about protects us from that. This work of knowing yourself, this work of knowing your values, protects you from that. if we could all be a little bit more like Sabo and Biles and say, I know what will keep me healthy long-term. Y’all can tweet all you want. You can say whatever you need to say about me. I know where I made that decision from.

59:58
then you’re gonna be okay even if people don’t like what you’ve chosen or if you’re, you if upper management does decide that like they don’t like the way that you’re attempting to shift the culture, that’s really important feedback because now we’re learning that maybe your values contradict where you are working. You have, we need to know that. Amen. Yeah, I think that’s super important and as leaders, there are tools.

01:00:25
that you can use that help you to become more self-aware for yourself and then make sure that you hold yourself accountable. And those are the rules of engagement, operating principles, values for your team that helps to drive more of that common vision towards how we’re going to operate so that we don’t put ourselves in the burnout, that we can operate at an optimal energy level.

01:00:51
in order to produce our best work. So I threw those out there. I know April probably would have gotten to that if I’d given her more time to talk. So I’ll just plug that. Thank you. Got my back. I like it. You’re welcome. Really fantastic conversation. We covered a lot of ground. Dr. Rebecca, are you open to some rapid fires before we let you close this out? What you got? So first, we always start with, what are you reading or listening to right now for your own personal growth?

01:01:20
I am listening to a podcast with Dr. Mike, the checkup. He’s a primary care physician and just, you know, talks about like health overall does really, really cool interviews with people in the healthcare space. You know, lot of dilemmas that I see in my practice. And, uh, personally, I’m on a, on a health journey, trying to figure out like, what is this body at 42 post motherhood. like I am.

01:01:49
I am very much interested in like learning more about like how to recalibrate my, my physical health right now. that’s okay. Dr. Mike, I’m in your boat. What is your favorite way to unwind? How do you do your, what’s your favorite self care? That sitting on the couch and silence thing. You know, when you have a very active, bright, energetic, beautiful three-year-old silences, it’s, it’s the best. mean,

01:02:20
Any moment that I can get, like, especially if I know he’s like, well cared for or asleep or, you know, sitting in silence. That’s, that’s my jam these days. I can appreciate that. I’m sure April can too. Just getting to go to the bathroom by yourself at that. Oh my goodness.

01:02:38
A little bit different, but fun question. If you could shadow anyone for a day, who would it be? As someone who has zero experience in a corporate setting as a worker, like I haven’t worked in corporate, I think it’d be really interesting to like follow a big CEO around because I think I do have some potential misconceptions about what that looks like. you know, even the people who I know or have worked with.

01:03:07
have not been like at the upper level uh of a company in that way. So yeah, any Fortune 500 CEO, I’d love to shadow. Wow, that’s a great answer. All right, so Dr. Rebecca, anything else to kind of wrap this up? Anything we didn’t cover, do you think is really important to mention? oh Anything to put a bow on this? And then obviously tell people where they can find you. One thing, I mean, I feel…

01:03:35
very good about our conversation. think we hit a lot of great points. And I think if I’d had to narrow it down to like one message that I feel like we all made really clear right now is that the self-awareness piece is crucial, right? So, you know, a lot of people think that ah burnout is about doing too much, but it’s also about ignoring too much.

01:04:01
It’s about ignoring things about yourself, parts about yourself and your needs. And if we can pay a little more attention to what’s going on, we’re doing burnout prevention. So I would love if, if folks want to do more on that exploration process, I wrote a quiz called, what is your productivity pattern? So I’m still need to share that link with you guys, but I think that’s a good way to get the wheels turning. I’m like, what is kind of my tendency or how do I respond to.

01:04:30
rest or urgency or like what’s my process with that. I’m also planning a workshop in October that’ll be virtual, kind of like for the general public. So anyone who wants to jump in is welcome to sign up for that. It will also be around this thing of our productivity patterns. What have we learned about it? How does that show up in our lives? And then I’m definitely excited and available for workshops and any

01:04:59
groups or organizations, if you want to bring this to your team, if you want us to have a conversation about burnout that’s more specific to your industry or the specific work context that you’re in, I’d be very excited to do that. It’s wonderful. And where can people go to get the quiz or more information about the workshop? Is that on your website or? Yep. So folks can find me at groundedwellnessllc.com.

01:05:24
I’ll also share the link with the quiz for you guys if you wanted to include that in the show notes. What would the show notes? Wonderful. ah Sometimes I’m on Instagram. I have a mixed relationship with that space, but grounded that wellness that living is where you would find me there. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I mean, just a fabulous conversation, the drive awareness and hopefully really instigate that.

01:05:52
that action towards taking care of ourselves and that mindset. with that, encourage everyone to take at least one powerful insight you heard. mean, just a lot here, really internalize this idea about burnout and then put it into practice. Because remember, strategic counsel is only effective if you put it into action. Did we spark something with this episode that you want to talk about further? Reach out to us through our website, forthright-people.com. We can help you customize what you have heard to move your business.

01:06:22
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