How to Negotiate for a Promotion: Show Notes & Transcript
Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.
In this episode, we’re talking about how to negotation for a promotion. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!
- Episode Summary & Player
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- Strategic Counsel Summary
- Transcript
How to Negotiate for a Promotion
In this episode of Strategic Counsel (or Strat Counsel for short), we cover one of the most frequent topics we see with our Executive Coaching clients: how to negotiate for a promotion. It’s a tricky topic that can either propel your career forward or set you back. When negotiating for a promotion, you should draft the job description as YOU see it, get clear on ALL of your asks, enter the conversation with you in the driver’s seat, and be ready for there to be some back and forth. Hear our insights in this jam-packed episode, complete with examples of how the conversation might go with your boss. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:
- How to justify that you deserve this promotion?
- How to show that you’re thinking about the business needs?
- Dealing with managers who aren’t people people
- Building advocates for your career advancement
- The art of timing
- What’s the essence of a negotiation?
- What to do if you’re non negotiables are turned down?
Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:
And as always, if you need help in building your Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.
Show Notes
- How to Negotiate a Promotion
- [0:29] No one will manage your career better than you
- [2:18] Draft the job description as you see it
- [4:04] What are you really looking for in the next level of your career or this next job?
- [5:20] Show that you’re thinking about the business needs
- [7:36] How to justify that you deserve this promotion?
- [9:03] Thought Leadership
- [10:27] What are the things you need?
- [11:23] Tie the pay increase to the job description you wrote
- [12:45] If people don’t meet your non-negotiables, what’s next?
- [13:12] What are you prepared for?
- [14:36] Negotiation is give and take on both sides
- [16:20] Your job now to go in and pitch this to the organization
- [18:10] Open the floor to questions and input
- [20:01] If you think your organization doesn’t work like this…
- [21:50] Before you enter the conversation, know what outcomes you’re willing to accept
- [23:12] Success in this process can look different across situations
- [23:41] Mock role-play of negotiating a promotion
- [26:17] Ask the question back
- [27:40] Some managers are always going to say no first
- [29:03] Building advocates who will speak on your behalf
- [31:46] Balance out what is right for you and right for the organization
- [33:14] Give yourself an out, but not an ultimatum
- [34:11] Set a time for when to reopen the negotiation
- [35:28] Make sure you feel good about the outcome
- [36:54] The art of timing
- [37:36] What conditions am I willing to stay underneath?
- [39:00] Am I getting what I need? Am I making progress? Is it time to look for another job?
- [40:19] What to do if everything you asked for is turned down?
- [41:19] Summarizing the main points for negotiating a promotion
- [43:23] Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn
- [43:30] Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
What is Strategic Counsel?
Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.
Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic.
Transcript
Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
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00:01
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business podcast. If you’re looking for honest, direct, and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead and operate in business, you are in the right place. In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking to reveal a fresh perspective. This unlocks opportunity for you, your team, and your business. Now let’s get to it.
00:29
Welcome to the Strategic Counsel Podcast. I am Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And as many of you know, one of the main pillars of our business and a particular personal area of passion of mine is our executive coaching. And one of the topics that we consistently tackle with that book of clients is all around promotion and specifically, how do you go about negotiating one. The old adage always comes to mind here of no one will ever manage your career for you better than you.
00:57
So what does that mean? That means you need to own it. And that is what we will get into in depth in this episode. Yeah, and just to kind of address a couple of points that we tend to hear here when we mentioned negotiating for promotion, everybody kind of gets that cringy face. Yeah. Especially females, honestly. Very fair. Is that just putting your head down, doing the work and thinking the work is gonna speak for itself, we’re not in that time and frame anymore. You have to be constantly thinking about
01:25
How do you put yourself in the best light? And how are you gonna make sure that people know what you’re doing and how well it’s actually going, right? Because, I mean, you’re gonna be the person who’s primarily responsible for self-promoting yourself, as April said, if you’re gonna wait for somebody else to do it, you’re gonna probably be waiting a long time, and then that’s always where the conflict of competition comes in. And then also to think about the fact that this is an ongoing process. This is not just something you think about
01:53
when it’s time or when you want a promotion, when, if that’s the time when you start this, you’re probably backing up the clock quite a bit where you’re probably like, if you were hoping for it for like a month from now, you probably should be, have thought about it like six months to a year before. So just kind of think about it as an always on kind of thing that you’re always doing. Yes, all of that. So with that, let’s jump into how to negotiate for a promotion.
02:18
First couple things I want to make points of here sort of go hand in hand, but the first one is around drafting the job description as you see it. And to Anne’s point about faces being made, we get lots of faces being made throughout the course of our advice, all we have in this episode. But this is one where people are like,
02:38
What do you mean? The company has job descriptions. They’re already set. I’m working against this next one. I’m a manager. I wanna get to a senior manager. I’m a senior manager. I wanna get to associate director, whatever your levels are within your organization. And this is what the job description looks like. And in that case, it becomes more of a check the box exercise, but it also doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat. So to the point I made in the very beginning and supported of no one’s gonna manage your career better than you.
03:07
You have to turn the tables on this entire conversation and think about yourself in the driver’s seat. Because the truth of the matter is, is often job descriptions were written a long time ago, or they were written just to pacify someone that said we had to have all these layers of job descriptions. Or, you know, we sort of have the way the titles go and they’re more tied to years of experience anyway, or, you know, these things that really aren’t points of.
03:35
why you should get a promotion or when everyone’s ready for promotion. And so what we say is there is no one size fits all. We all bring unique things to the table and the job landscape is always, always changing. And so really what you should think about is, okay, I want a promotion, but beyond just the title, the increase in salary, the edipitio, whatever that looks like, what are you really looking for in the next level of your career or this next job?
04:04
and it doesn’t necessarily have to follow a linear process, let them tell you that, right? Like you put what you think down on paper is the next set of things that makes sense for you personally to go tackle and how that’s going to benefit the organization and then put that in front of them. And I think you get credit for being proactive but also you’re serving yourself in addition to
04:31
thinking critically and authentically about what you bring for the organization. Yeah, I love all that. I think to hit one of the things you just said, it does exemplify a level of thought leadership. Yes. Because you are in the work. So if you’re, again, waiting for management to kind of figure it out and organize this organization in a way that makes sense and to really consider what’s going on in the landscape and including, I mean.
04:58
You could be waiting a very long time. They’re just not focused at that level like you are. So if you’re negotiating for a promotion in a way that is conducive to what the business needs, that automatically puts yours in contention. And a lot of times it’s in creating a new role or it’s in creating a new.
05:20
level of capability or capacity. Now we’re gonna get through like, then how do you justify that? But it does show that you are strategically thinking about what the business needs. You’re thinking about how you can uniquely, as April said, be a valuable asset in that position. And it also shows why you’re the only one actually who would be good for that, right? Because you’re writing it according to what you’re going to be able to deliver in space. So it is a really, really good place to start. It helps you too to think critically
05:50
Well, what does this role entail? What does it take in order to be able to be a value added part of the business? So you have to go do the hard work. And then so doing again, save these people that you’re gonna be considering this a lot of effort. Cause again, if you’re expecting them, you’re just gonna kind of put it out there and then you’re gonna expect them to kind of go do all that work in order to make it work. No, you have to make it easy for them to say yes. So this is part of the way to make it easy for them to say yes.
06:18
Yes, I mean, I totally, totally agree. And I think the last point I will just say here is something that came up in my head when Anne was saying that about why you and how are you gonna benefit the business. Please don’t just go and Google the job description for some title that you think you want. No, chat GPTA. And they, don’t do that either. No. But really do think through, and I guess the reason I say that is, as I’m thinking through when we coach clients on this point,
06:46
I think people do get a little overwhelmed by the hard work of this. And so the inclination is to go and find other job descriptions that exist. It’s okay if you wanna do your homework and you wanna think through or see different options or that sort of thing, but that’s actually not what we’re talking about here. We would say don’t think about it in the traditional job description format.
07:07
think of it more in terms of what we were saying of, how are you gonna benefit the business and how are you going to elevate yourself as a result that then justifies the reason why you deserve this promotion? Yeah, and I think to build on that, doing your research is really, really important because a lot of times you’re going for a promotion, you also want an increase in pay. Yeah. So there is an element of anchoring it into something that feels familiar enough that you can go back and you can point to and say,
07:36
Other people who are senior VPs of business development are making this. And if you don’t know what that looks like, all you have to do is either Google it, chat GPT it, or look at LinkedIn and look at what they’re publishing the job offers at. It gives you a point of strength to be able to go out and do that negotiation and say, some data to say, this is a reality situation. This is actually what I’m getting paid.
08:04
So not only do I want this expanded responsibility, I want this in context of this kind of pay increase. It also, you justify it though by saying, to April’s point, that when you develop this job description that I’m going to be able to deliver this level of value then for the business. Are you gonna be able to grow the business? Are you gonna be able to generate more leads? Are you gonna be able to drive more awareness? Whatever your functional viewpoint is, make sure you are
08:34
outlining what this is going to actually deliver for the business. And I know that feels very uncomfortable because people are like, I don’t want to sign up for that. What if I can’t deliver? What if so and so, won’t let me do it. And then there’s like all these things in your head that you’re kind of like, well, what if this doesn’t like, if you’re not willing to put yourself out there and you’re not willing to say, I am going to commit that if you give this to me, this is what I’m going to go do. Then you might as well just sit back and wait and not even do anything because you’re just going to not
09:03
put a vote of confidence in them when you don’t have any vote of confidence for yourself. Well, and this goes back to the thought leadership piece. Right? Right. It’s if you wanna be a leader, thought leadership is leadership. You have to be able to put your stake in the ground and commit to things. Otherwise you may as well just, like you said, stay where you are. Yeah. You know, that comment actually leads nicely into the, I said this is kind of like a two-part point that I wanna talk about. It’s, okay, so first you write the job.
09:29
description and what it’s going to do for the organization, improve all of that out, all that justification that we just talked about. The other side is getting clear on all of the things you want to ask for. Again, this is not arbitrary. You heard Anne just say, if you’re expecting a bump in salary, which, I mean, I don’t know who is looking for a promotion and doesn’t anticipate that, do your homework and figure out what that looks like. But one of the other things that we see is that people get uncomfortable about making the app.
09:59
And if you’re going to go to the effort of writing your own job description, you should certainly go to the effort of asking for the things that you think are associated with your role. Now, again, you do it in terms of do your research, all of those kinds of things, but put together that comprehensive list of what you think you need to Anne’s point. You’re putting a stake in the ground and you’re putting your name on the line really, right? Of how am I going to go about delivering this? So think through what are the things you need? Is it?
10:28
I need more people for my team. Is it, oh, hey, we need to expand to these markets and we need to develop a presence there and how am I gonna go and do that? Is it, I’m gonna be traveling more, but on the other side, I want that to mean that I don’t have to be in the building when I’m here in town. What are all of those things that you are asking for? And then you wanna tie those back again to…
10:54
the benefit you’re building for the business, and then why you need these things, right? And when you create that list, don’t think small. Think of all the possibilities of what you might need, of course, within reason. Don’t ask to double your salary, things like that, right? Like just hear us through the lens of, I mean, maybe there are certain circumstances where you have seen that happen. But make that list and make it
11:23
really intentional and strategic in the way you do it, tied to that job description. Because we will say, and a little bit of a spoiler alert, we’ve had two people that we coach within the past couple months go with their list and get everything they asked for. Because it was so tied to that job description that they proactively wrote, what they were uniquely going to deliver for the organization and why this role was right for them, and then subsequently what they needed to make it happen. So.
11:52
Just letting you know it does happen. Yeah, and I think the root of that and where we had to really get them to though was having the confidence that they know their value. And like I just mentioned in the last point, if you don’t have confidence in yourself, nobody else is gonna have confidence. So there’s an element of being able to go in there and asking for what you want, all these things in a way, again, that drives to strategically the benefit of the business, but it also is.
12:19
putting yourself in the best position to deliver them. Absolutely. So we call those the non-negotiables, right? So if you’re gonna go in, you’re gonna have a list. It’s very, very important to go through that list and really identify what the non-negotiables are because those are going to be the core by which this is going to work for you. Now, the flip side of that is you have to also determine if people do not mean your non-negotiables, what are you gonna go do, right?
12:45
because you lose all integrity if you go in and you’re asking for this and somebody says, well, we’re not gonna give you any of these. You’d be like, okay, well, it was worth a shot. I’m just gonna go back and do what I’m gonna go do and it was what I was doing anyway. If you’re in that position, then you are probably not ready to go and make this ask. Okay, you have to go with an understanding that if I don’t get these non-negotiables, what is going to be my counter strategy? Am I prepared to walk away?
13:12
Am I prepared to just be like, then, well, I’m not gonna do this element of the assignment anymore, and then what happens, happens? Like, what are you prepared for? Because in most cases, there is gonna be some back and forth, and there’s gonna be some compromise, but you need to be very, very clear about what you’re gonna be willing to compromise on, and how are you going to set that up so that you can maintain a level of integrity. So I think that’s really important to emphasize on that point.
13:40
Yeah, and I would say at this point in the process though, you don’t show that hand, right? You’re making your list and you know it inherently, but like we will get into the back and forth, you need to know for yourself and be clear what those things are. But you’re not yet at the point where you’re conceding anything you’re asking for, right? I think it depends on what point of the process you’re in, like what level yet you’re at.
14:08
because I think your job description should include a lot of the non-negotiables that you have identified, right? Or what your negotiation strategy is, but I would not go in and have a conversation without knowing what those non-negotiables are. Yes, I think we’re saying the exact same thing. We’re saying, like, I mean, you know, so my advice would be draft the list of all the asks, right? But in your mind, you know what on that list you can’t live without.
14:36
Right, right, right. And so it matches the job description, but in any negotiation, negotiation is right give and take on both sides. So, you know, just know, be clear with yourself and your head, because I think on the other side of this, what I’ve seen happen is people not asking for enough. And so they, and it goes back to what you said, Anne, about the confidence and am I ready for this? And have I prepared for this and all of those things? So,
15:03
it’s an imbalance from the beginning where the job description is going to either one, give more to the company than the person’s getting on the other side, or they’re sort of shooting themselves in the foot where they’re signing themselves up and putting their name on the line, but they don’t have the confidence to go and ask for best case scenario. And we can’t always expect that it’s gonna be exactly perfect or any of those kinds of things. That’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m just suggesting that you make sure you shoot
15:32
big enough so that there is some wiggle room that can still be successful. That’s all I’m saying. Fair. So to that point, the other piece about this is entering the conversation with you in the driver’s seat. So again, what you’re hearing us say is it’s really shifting the perspective of the traditional way people get promoted versus the way that when you prepare yourself and you proactively go for it, what does it look like?
15:58
And we have honestly this same conversation with people too about when you go into job interviews, right? So often in these types of situations, interviewing, yearly reviews, when I’m set for a promotion, I need to go make the ask of hiring a new team member or asking for flexibility or whatever, we feel like, and we put our mindset in a place where we’re at the mercy of the company.
16:20
And what we’re saying is, no, you’ve done all this hard work at this point. You’ve drafted the job description, you’ve gotten clear on what your asks are, you’re showing clear benefit to the company. This is your job now to go in and pitch this to the organization. And from that standpoint, you need to make sure that you have your clear talk track on why you’ve positioned it this way and the things you need from the organization.
16:49
and you need to be able to articulate it and bring it off the papers, right, the sheets, and really create that compelling argument. And I think what happens here too is this is another moment for people where it’s like, oh, it’s gonna be so awkward. This is not the way it happens in the company or every other time someone’s given me the promotion and I haven’t had to position myself, how am I gonna go and do this? And it comes down honestly to good old fashioned practice.
17:16
to thinking through that traditional way of like, I’m gonna tell them what I’m gonna tell them, I’m gonna tell them and I’m gonna repeat it to them. Getting clear like Ann said on, here’s the five things I need and things like, here’s the three things I want them to take away and at the end of the day, this is what I want them to understand the success for the business is going to be and going in prepared to make that argument. A couple of other tips here that I always give are, one, ask for the floor until you’re finished. So,
17:46
be allowed to present the case for yourself without people interrupting you. Stop talking. Yeah. Say those things that I just outlined and don’t do the like, you know, oh no, I’m reading someone’s face in the room and now I’m nervous and now I’m just gonna keep talking and talking and talking and not shut up or falling off awkwardly from the point. Get through the talk track of what you’re trying to say.
18:10
and then open up the floor to questions or thoughts or input or discussion, because as we said, there will be some back and forth in this, but really orient yourself as like, I’m standing up for myself, this is my career, and this is what I need in order to push my career forward, and this is what it will then do for my organization. The preparation piece is really, really important, and the way that I find very helpful in preparing
18:39
our coaching clients for this is to ask them, why would somebody say no? Yes, really good point, really good point. And so thinking about and going through the individuals that are gonna be the stakeholders and have to say yes, it’s like, why would they say no to this? What would be their challenges? What would be, what’s getting in their way? And come prepared with solutions to that or ways of talking about it that deflate a little bit of why they would say no, because the…
19:08
thing that you need to be focused on the goal of this is to have an easy yes, like I said before. So in the way that you’re positioning it, as April said, you’re positioning it about what’s best for the business, not just what’s best for you, but then you’re also are thinking about all the ways that people might have an issue with it, and you’re going to have a response for that. You may not have the answer for it, but you have a response for that and you’re gonna be prepared so you’re not back on your heels.
19:33
And for April’s right, for all of you guys are like, well, my organization does not work that way. I mean, I grew up at P&G. P&G has probably the most rigid promotional structure ever. I went in and I said, made an argument for a new role that was not even defined and said, I think that this is gonna be the best for the business and I think this is gonna be the best for me and my career growth and I got that role, right? And it didn’t even exist.
20:01
So for all you guys to be like, my organization doesn’t work like that, organizations have to work like that now because rigid structures don’t accommodate for changes in the landscape. And if you are going to be very in tune with what the business needs again at that level, you can use that to your advantage to actually develop something that might not even exist in a way that people are not even thinking about it, but that suits you perfectly. Yeah, and I think again, we’ve said throughout the episode,
20:30
people fall back on the way things were done as just sort of a knee jerk. It doesn’t mean that it has to be that way. And I think that’s why people say things like that. My organization doesn’t work like that. Just because you haven’t seen it happen absolutely does not mean that it isn’t possible. And sometimes you have to be the first. So, you know, put your big boy and girl pants on and how much do you really want that promotion? Go do it. That’s right.
20:56
And then we’ve said this kind of outright, but the other side of things here is to be ready for some back and forth. I mean, I did say that we had two people recently get everything they asked for, but I don’t mean to misconstrue that to say there wasn’t any back and forth in that process. So again, you’re standing up for yourself, you’re asserting yourself, and already said everyone’s gonna have reasons why not, or pushbacks to what you’re asking for, or their own opinion in the situation.
21:24
And so be ready for that. And this is where I think those non-negotiables come into play and you being really clear with yourself about what you will accept and what you will not. So Anne got into this before about making sure that you’re honest with yourself before you even enter into this process about what the possible outcomes are and what you are going to accept or not. And sometimes that might be, you know,
21:50
I didn’t get my non-negotiables, so I’m gonna leave the organization. Sometimes it might be I didn’t get the promotion, and so I’m gonna stay in this position and potentially look elsewhere, look in a different department or whatever that might be. It’s not always linear that you do this and you automatically get it and it’s a slam dunk. And just like everything else in life, every relationship you have in life, right? There is negotiation and compromise.
22:15
And so you have to be ready for that. But what we always hold to really strongly with our coaching clients is a promotion should be something that you were excited and proud of. And if when all the dust settles, promotion or not, if you don’t feel that, and I realize that’s, you know, kind of an arbitrary statement, but if you don’t feel excited about what’s to come and proud of what you accomplished through this process.
22:42
then you really need to take a hard look on whether you want it, or you wanna go figure out something else, because what you don’t wanna do is end up in a promotion situation that is set up for failure from the beginning, where you and the company aren’t gonna get what you expected out of it. That’s not a good place for anybody to be. On the other side of this, I will say that, while we’ve had a couple clients go and really successfully get these promotions lately, this has also led to a point in time
23:12
where this exercise was done and it allowed them to go and find a better role in another organization where it was a promotion because it was, you know, a better fit and elevated, you know, title, whatever those things are. So this work is really, really important. The art of negotiation is something that everybody has to get really good out throughout the course of their career because you’re gonna have to do this over and over again. And this back and forth piece is just one of the things where
23:41
You can do all that upfront hard work in the world, go have that first conversation. And then it’s like another place of uncomfortable where people are like, okay, I did it. And now I’m not sure that I wanna continue this. So I’ll just take whatever it is, right? And I just think that that never really ends up well for anybody. So maybe it might be fine, April, to kind of maybe to some extent role play some of the responses that they’re going to get.
24:06
and how did he respond back to them? Because I mean, there’s definitely some common runs. Yeah, yep. All right, so first I’ll start with the guilt trip. Oh yes, yes, go. April, well, you know, we’re really trying to make our numbers. I just don’t think we have capacity in the budget. I mean, there’s just a lot going on right now.
24:27
You know, I think the big response to that is I completely understand that. And that’s actually the reason that I’ve come with this, because I’ve been told to this point that I’m a very valued member of the organization. And if that’s true, this is one of those times where the rubber meets the road for me. I’m doing, you know, X, Y and Z thing. I would have pre set up. And I want to help us get those numbers back on track. But I think where we’re falling apart is.
24:56
X, Y, and Z. And therefore, the reason that I’ve brought forth this job description and this new role for me is because I need, insert non-negotiables, in order to get us back on track and elevate the business from there. That was good. All right, here’s another one. I just don’t know if you’re ready for this. I mean, we haven’t seen you do this and this and these other things. And I mean, you’re a strong performer, but I just don’t know if you’re quite ready.
25:24
And this is one where you should have your, here’s how I’m already doing this job. So this is, you know, I can totally appreciate that I’m not delivering this entire job description today. The point of the promotion is that I’m gonna elevate myself as I elevate the organization. But what I have been doing outside of my day to day is insert two or three examples that are way above and beyond what I’m doing in this current role.
25:52
And while I also realize you can never know 100% someone is ready, I think the homework that I’ve brought to you today in the business case for why this makes sense should prove to you that I’m in the driver’s seat of my career. I know what’s next for the business and I’m asking you to empower me to go and achieve that. I like that. Another strategy that I find works is to make them accountable. So how am I not?
26:17
Yeah, how am I not? So ask the question back. It’s like, well, what would you need to see in order for you to feel comfortable that I am ready for this? Yep. And then you take all your notes and then you can come back and say, okay, that’s fine. I’m going to go back and I’m going to think about that. You don’t have to win in that one meeting, right? You can go back and you can think about and say, come back with all that. Say, I’ve thought about everything you said. Here’s some evidence that says that to the contrary, and here are the things I’m going to work on.
26:44
By the way, I’m gonna maybe go take this training or I’m now gotten this new mentor or I am going to ask for some exposure to this new area. When can we next evaluate whether or not I’m ready for this? One month, two months? When can we have that next meeting? So you start sitting in accountability in a timeline structure that says, okay, we’re gonna continue to have this conversation. I’m not just gonna go away. You can’t push me off that easily, but I am hearing you, I’m listening, and I’m going to.
27:12
go and I’m going to do what you’ve asked of me until basically they can’t say no again. Well, and I think you bring up a really good point which we touched on this, but we didn’t necessarily go into the detail. You need to be really clear on what are the modes of operation of the people that are sitting at that table. Because I think you’re exactly right. I think there are some people who will challenge just for challenge sake. And in those instances,
27:40
It’s a little bit of go toe to toe, right? But when I think about one of the promotions I did not get in my career right off the bat, it was someone who was always gonna say no first. That was just, they were one of those people, they were ultra conservative. He and I didn’t really get along. I knew he was the one I was gonna have to win over. And the way to do that was to know I was gonna get that feedback in the first meeting and I was gonna have to do some extra work to prove myself. So.
28:07
not only anticipating what the questions might be or the pushback or what’s going to happen in this back and forth, but really think through those players at the table, your current relationship with them and what is their default mode. If you don’t know or you’re not sure as close to, find people that can help you with that because I think that is a really hugely important point to this whole process. Yeah, finding an advocate is actually very, very helpful regardless because as we said here, this is not like…
28:35
I decide I want a promotion tomorrow, I’m going to go in and ask for the promotion. This should be an always on thing that you’re having, continuing having a conversation with your management. You’re continuing to seek out advocates who are going to support you when you’re ready and who are going to speak on your behalf. You can maybe help with some of the naysayers who you know maybe don’t like you so well or maybe don’t know you very well or have some other preconception of whatever is going on in their life and you know they’re just going to be contrarian. So…
29:03
You start building those advocates who could speak on your behalf and that really does help to help you guide through the conversation because you don’t know what you don’t know and you don’t know what’s happening at those levels. So it helps you anticipate, helps you do your research, helps you understand what they’re going to say no to, helps you prepare for that. But also it provides you the, like you said, being in the driver’s seat so that you don’t
29:25
feel like you have to go into defensive mode. Right, exactly. In there and just defend, if you feel like you’re going into that defensive mode, you need to stop right away. Cut it off, yep. And then you need to just extank them for the feedback, accept what you heard, and then you come back and fight another day. Yes. Right, so that means you just need to go do more work, you needed to go do more research, you need to come back. So I have another one. This game is fun. Wanna play again? Okay, here we go. I don’t know, April. How about, let’s…
29:53
let’s just like revisit this next year. It’s just not the right time. Yeah, so this is a big one where that’s an answer you can’t accept because two, in your accountability piece, I mean, my response there is I can appreciate that maybe this came a bit unexpectedly or out of the blue. And I also know that it is a process, but.
30:16
You know me by now, I’m an achievement oriented person. And not only that, but I’ve laid out a strong business case for where I can take this organization. But if you tell me I have to wait a year, I’m not sure what my path to getting there looks like. So I can appreciate if now today is not the exact right time, but I would love if we could sit down and map out what that road to getting there looks like, and what are the milestones that you feel I need to reach. And then we can talk about what looks like.
30:46
a really strong timeline for that because we may be able to find efficiencies that make us both happy, that get us there faster, both from a promotion standpoint for me, but also for the organization. I love that. And I think that hits on the reality of the situation is that some people are just not going to want to deal with it. Exactly. They’re not necessarily- Well, that’s what that was. It was a blow off. Yeah. It’s a blow off, right? And so people are going to tend to blow off. They’re just going to, I’m like, I don’t, that’s one- One more thing. I just don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want anybody to deal with that right now. So I’m just going to continue to push you off and blow you off.
31:15
because they don’t want to deal with it because you’re asking them to go do work that they don’t want to go do. And that even gets exacerbated if they’re not people people. Like if they’re not managers for manager’s sake, they’re leaders and they’re out for themselves, right? So that- And they don’t have a team mentality, right? And they don’t have a team mentality. Okay, so April, I get, yeah, what you’re asking for. We could probably give you some of these things, but we’re not going to be able to give you everything and assume one of the every things is your non-negotiables.
31:46
Sure. So I can again, appreciate that this is a negotiation and that it has to balance out what is right for me, but also what is right for the organization. And so I’m a reasonable person and I’m totally willing to have the discussion, but here are the things that I just can’t compromise on. And I think you can understand where I’m coming from in this, that if I, for example,
32:15
take this promotion and there is no increase, then it’s constantly gonna be an uphill battle from this point forward. And so I would ask that you sitting at this table, put yourself in my shoes. I’m advocating on my behalf for my career. That puts me behind if I agree to these stipulations. And so again, I’m happy to negotiate. I’m happy to continue the conversations, but these things are things that
32:45
I can’t go without because I don’t think I’ll be successful for myself or for the business here. And then I think the ask is for more conversation because I think this is also one of those moments where it can go downhill very quickly. So I would just say, say, say your piece about the non-negotiables, which is why we have that list, but be open to ending the conversation, especially you can see on people’s faces.
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the reaction at that point. So go as far to the line as you feel like you can and then back off. I thousand percent agree with that. So to build on that, I think what everything you said is right on. I would give yourself an out and don’t make it an ultimatum. Yes, exactly. Right? So make sure you have an out. And I think you said that perfectly, which is thank you for that. I’m gonna have to go back and I need to think about what my next steps are gonna be. Yeah. So don’t feel like you’re pressured in that time to make
33:44
Like the traditional tomato, well, if you don’t give me what I want, then I’m going to leave. Yeah, yes. Right. So be very careful. That’s what I mean about the contentious. Right? Yeah. Be very, very careful unless you are prepared to leave and you’re prepared to walk out that door. And if you are, great. If you’re not and you want some wiggle room and you want to be able to come back and save face and manage your integrity, then you give yourself an out and you come back to fight another day. Yeah. Right. And you set that time for when you’re going to come back. Yeah. And you set that time like then or.
34:11
Yeah, I’m going to come back. I’ll be back in the next couple of days with how I am going to respond to this. And I really hope you guys reconsider what your stance is to and see if we can make this work to our mutual benefit. Yeah. I mean, this is where the burning the bridge comes in. So I think that’s where you have to be careful. To me, the walk away moments in the moment typically are related to a track record.
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of things not going well. I don’t think we’ve ever really advocated for this being your first point of any sort of like back and forth between the organization that you would take all your toys out of the sandbox and go home. I think that’s not a good look. I think this is a learning experience for everybody. And so I think you need to approach it from the perspective, like we said, of
35:01
it’s not gonna be a slam dunk the first time. You’re not gonna go in there and they’re gonna be like, yeah, you’re the greatest thing ever. Have anything you want, roll out the red carpet. Like, and so you have to be prepared for this. But I do think, like you said, you have to think about your reputation. And that goes across any location, any industry, anything where you do have to remember you may encounter these folks again, or someone may ask for a recommendation, all of those things. So just be careful.
35:28
I think you said the word integrity. Just make sure that you feel good about the outcome, whatever it looks like. I have another one. I’m gonna be here all day. This is another comment one y’all get or could, or potentially get and all of our coaching clients, I think they all did get this initially. Nope, it’s just not your time. It’s not your turn. It’s not your time. Nope, not happening. So this is where I think you have to say, I appreciate that that’s how you feel.
35:58
help me understand more about why you feel that way. Because what I’m hearing isn’t a path forward and it doesn’t make it clear. I’ve also said, and this is an April thing that I maybe shouldn’t have said exactly like this, but I’m not inspired to continue, which was not the right phrasing. But if you could say that a little more and have more tonally appropriate. I think I’ve said, how am I supposed to be motivated to work here now? Yeah, that’s right, exactly.
36:27
So that may not be the right response. Maybe don’t do that. But I think if you, in your mind, you have to think, if I let this door close, I have failed myself. And so again, it’s holding people’s feet to the fire. Okay, I can appreciate you feel that way. Help me understand why that is. And then what does it take for us to open up this conversation and come up with a plan so that I feel like I have a path.
36:54
I like that and I think here’s where the art of timing comes in because you have to set your timing for yourself and you have to set your timing for the people who are holding the keys, right? So that’s the accountability piece for both of you.
37:12
make sure that they’re held to some level of timing, make sure they commit to some level of timing where you’re going to revisit that conversation. If the timing does not match up with what the timing is that your internal clock is saying is what seems reasonable, then that is something that you need to go back and consider. And your strategy of like, okay, if I don’t get everything I want or if this is not happening on the pace that I want it, am I willing to stay? If I am willing to stay, what conditions am I willing to stay underneath? And some of that is
37:39
verbally expressed and some of those are the decisions you make internally. Now, a lot of people are calling that quiet quitting. That’s not what we’re advocating for here, but sometimes your mindset has to shift with regards to what effort am I going to put in if I feel like I’m not being valued to the extent that I’m being valued and we’re not going to get into all of that in this conversation. I think that’s probably a good one for another podcast episode of like, okay, what happens then when you do concede or that you decide
38:09
that you are going to stay, but you’re not getting what you want. We’ll save that, but that does have to be part of your strategy because it does have an impact about what you’re willing to give up and what you’re okay with doing next. And all of those are not, there’s no right or wrong answer to this. You’re not going to get judged. You don’t, me and April are not saying, if you don’t get what you want, you walk out that door and you don’t look back. I’m like, we’re not saying that there’s a lot of things to consider.
38:34
I mean, your livelihood. I mean, all of those sorts of things. And we all have different non-negotiables. And we have different non-negotiables. So they all could be very different for you. And that’s totally fine. But make sure that you’re very clear on your timing. And have some integrity around that timing too. Even if it’s just a check in and say, well, I said I was going to get myself six months. How am I feeling right now at six months? Do I want to go back after this again?
39:00
Am I getting what I need? Am I making progress? Is it time to look for another job? Because those are all decisions you can make too. They don’t have to be sequentially organized. You can decide, well, okay, if I’m gonna get this hard now, I’m gonna keep doing this, but I’m now going to dedicate part of my time to actually looking for another job. Yep. Right? So all these things are strategies for when you don’t get everything you want and you’re not ready to walk out the door, but.
39:27
Just make sure you hold some integrity to timing. That is one of your biggest ways that you get to be in the driver’s seat, is because you’re managing your own timeline and what’s okay for you. Yeah. And I think too, don’t feel like it’s selling out either if you’re going to stay. I mean, this is like plan A, B, and C, right? Plan A is I go in there, I get the promotion, I get my non-negotiables, I’m good to go.
39:54
But B and C are shades of that, right? I got part of it. I’ve now done this once or twice or however many times. It didn’t get all the way there. So then what’s that worth to me? How long am I willing to stay within this? And that’s perfectly OK. It’s a process. It’s a journey. And then if you do get the, like, if you’re one of the unfortunate ones where it’s like, everything is turned down and you’ve done what you can and you’ve gone to that line and you’re like, well, I’m not ready to just quit and leave and livelihood and all that comes into play.
40:23
That’s also fine. This is all meant to be learning. And again, every experience you have around negotiation in general in your career, but certainly around promotions is practice. So you’re learning, you’re growing through the process, you’re experiencing lots of different personalities, you’re testing and learning your way through. You’re becoming an advocate for yourself. Yeah, you’re becoming an advocate for yourself. You’re learning, you’re getting very clear on what you will and will not tolerate. These are all really good things.
40:53
It’s just never gonna be black and white. And we would never wanna set up the expectation that like, you do what we have on the paper here and you are gonna get it every time. So just know that it’s all gonna come with some level of negotiation. Like you’ll have a better chance of getting it, that’s for sure. Well, yeah, we’re setting you up for success, but we also can’t control the people and the organizations and all those things like we’ve said throughout, 1000%. I don’t have any other scenarios. Oh.
41:19
Okay, I’m sure I’m missing a couple. Made it through. Okay, well I will quickly summarize before Anne comes up with some other idea. Right, today we talked about how to negotiate for a promotion. I will just hit the highlights. Those first two pieces we talked about was draft the job description as you see it. Don’t just take whatever exists on paper in your organization.
41:37
And alongside that, make sure you’re clear on all of your asks because it should be a balance of what you’re bringing to the organization, what they’re getting out of you, what you’re achieving, but then personally, what’s gonna set you up for success and growth in your career. And that all comes with your managing on your behalf. So just make sure that those things are working out whatever they look like for you.
41:58
Enter the conversation with you in the driver’s seat. Again, remember this isn’t just, oh, this is the way my organization does this. This is promotion time. This is review time. All of those kinds of things, what we’re trying to do here, even if you’re breaking the culture and you’re doing something for the first time, is reorienting in your brain again, that I’m in control of my career. So I need to enter these types of conversations prepared, proactive, and therefore in the driver’s seat. And then know that it’s gonna be a negotiation. You’re dealing with people.
42:27
We all have different ways of coming at things. We all have different ways of responding in these types of situations, like all situations. Think about the players at the table. Think about the pushback you might get. Know that there will be some. This is a marathon, it’s not a sprint. You wanna make sure that you’re thinking about those involved. And again, where can you be proactive? What are they gonna push on? What might they come back? What’s their natural tendencies? And be ready for that. And don’t give in too quickly, but also don’t die on your sword if it’s not.
42:55
worth that and know that there’s gray. So there can be things that are wins that are not the ultimate wins. There can be things that are losses that aren’t, I have to leave tomorrow, there’s everything in between. So just think through those scenarios and what your response will be and how you will handle it. All right, and with that, we encourage you to take at least one powerful insight you heard today and put it into practice because strategic counsel is only effective if you actually put it into action.
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