How to Win as an Underdog Brand with Paul Mellor, Mellor&Smith: Show Notes & Transcript

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

In this episode of Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business, we’re talking how to win as an underdog brand with Paul Mellor. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review!

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Strategic Counsel: How to Win as an Underdog Brand with Paul Mellor, Mellor&Smith

Sure, it’s nice to be the category leader. But, there can only be one leader – making many of us underdogs. Being an underdog can feel very daunting. That doesn’t mean you can’t be highly successful in your own right. We wanted you to learn from a trailblazer who helps underdogs for a living, so we welcomed on Paul Mellor, Founder & Managing Director of Mellor&Smith. They’re an advertising agency specializing in getting Underdog brands NOTICED. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• How to define an underdog brand?
• What does it look like to cut 50% of what a brand is doing?
• Can brands be successful as an underdog brand or do they need to become market leaders?
• What is the ONE thing that big brands can’t, won’t, or don’t do?
• The SINGLE advantage that underdog brands have that big dogs don’t

Make sure to check out their 13½ Ways to Grow Your Underdog Brand.

And as always, if you need Strategic Counsel, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

• How to Win as an Underdog Brand with Paul Mellor, Mellor&Smith
  • [0:00] Welcome to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business
  • [0:36] How to win as an underdog brand
  • [1:36] Welcome to the show, Paul Mellor!
  • [3:02] How does Paul define an underdog brand?
  • [9:24] What happens in the market to make them 6th instead of 3rd or 4th?
  • [14:54] Is Paul helping companies become market leaders?
  • [20:01] Can brands be successful as an underdog brand?
  • [22:18] How do companies feel about being underdogs?
  • [27:13] How is the work different for underdog brands?
  • [32:55] What does it look like to cut 50% of what a brand is doing?
  • [39:27] Is it easy to get brands comfortable doing risky shifts?
  • [44:01] How not to water down the strategy?
  • [47:42] Why can’t underdog brands use big dog strategies?
  • Quick-Fire Questions
  • [53:01] Paul’s pitch for France
  • [54:07] The best advice he’s ever received
  • [55:19] What is Paul reading right now? Lover Man by Alston Anderson
  • [56:30] Download 13½ Ways to Grow Your Underdog Brand
  • [58:04] Make sure to follow Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
  • [58:09] Learn more at ForthRight-People.com and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn

What is Strategic Counsel?

Welcome back to Strategic Counsel by ForthRight Business! Looking for Marketing Smarts? You’re in the right place. After almost 4 years of helping to make you savvier marketers, we decided to broaden this podcast to include more business-oriented topics that will make you savvier business leaders.

Thanks for listening Strategic Counsel. Get in touch here to become more strategic.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:03

Welcome to the Strategic Counsel by Forthright Business Podcast.  If you’re looking for honest, direct and unconventional conversations on how to successfully lead  and operate in business,  you are in the right place.  In our discussions, we push on the status quo and traditional modes of thinking  to reveal a fresh perspective.  This unlocks opportunity for you, your team  and your business. Now let’s get to it.  Welcome to the Strategic Counsel Podcast. I’m Anne Candido.

 

00:32

and I’m April Martini. And today we’re going to talk about how to win as an underdog brand. Sure, it’s nice to be a category leader, but just by the virtue of the fact that there could only be  one category leader, that means many of us are by definition underdogs. So being an underdog can feel very daunting, always trying to live it up to those who have more market share, attention or popularity, but it doesn’t mean you can’t be highly successful in your own right.

 

01:00

Yes, as an example, the beauty industry has been totally disrupted by challenger underdog brands. Not to mention the success of brands like Dollar Shave Club and Harry’s, which Anne can speak firsthand to the trauma they caused over at P &G. Oh yes. But even outside of CPG and specialty brands, B2Bs had their fair share as boutique agencies and service providers are popping up to serve the unique needs of clients who aren’t being served by those large enterprise companies or the leaders in the space.

 

01:27

Now there’s space for everybody to win. So you just need to know how to play the game. And that is exactly what we’re going to talk about today. And we brought on a special guest to help with this topic. And that’s Paul Meller, founder of Meller and Spith. Paul, do you want to introduce yourself and give the listeners a bit of your story? Oh, yeah, thanks. An introduction to me. I’m a bit of a pain in the ass, I say. Or, you know, like if I’m talking to a US audience, definitely an ass rather than an ass. I’ve been an underdog my whole life.

 

01:56

It’s, in my DNA. It’s sort of  absolutely baked into  everything I’ve done. You know, whether it be professionally or personally, I set up Mellor and Smith,  the ad agency 16 years ago.  We quickly realized that if you want to produce proper work, you know, work that really has appetite and power and potency and wants to change your status quo, you’ve got to work with somebody that’s got something to chase.

 

02:26

rather than somebody something to protect. Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s extremely interesting. mean, just the fact that you’ve been an ad agency around for 16 years speaks to the longevity of being able to manage everything that’s kind of come across. So I’m sure you’re going to have some excellent perspective because I’m sure seriously ad agency around for 16 years. Is that even like a real thing? So yeah, that’s not even in dog years. You know what I mean? So that’s, you know, that’s, that’s real human years.

 

02:55

human years. Wow, well, this is going to be a fun conversation. Paul, let’s start with how do you define underdog brands? And what is common amongst those who are successful challengers? Well, there is a difference between a challenger and an underdog and we do define it. And  I can come on to like what  we think an underdog is and how we’ve defined it over those years. And  I would say that, you know, there are so few people that

 

03:23

work in our special, you know, in our specialism, we’re sort of like, you know, well, we’re world-class at it. you know, we’re, you know, I don’t want to sound too big headed, but we’re, a world leading thought on what an underdog brand is and what it kind of represents and who they are. But there is a difference between a challenger brand and an underdog. There was one characteristic that is different and that is appetite. There are a whole bunch. There are a whole bunch of challenger brands and they can be brands within.

 

03:52

you large,  big holding companies like a P and G where they have, you know, challenger brands, or they might have obviously category leaders as well. But there is one app there is in his appetite. That is the one thing that  is the distinctive factor between the challenger and an underdog. And that’s because an underdog has to have, they’ve got to some fight. They’ve got to have, they got something to  chase, something to win. Um, and then in terms of like the

 

04:21

There’s more like the hygiene factors of what constitutes an underdog. Really, they’ve got to be between fourth and tenth place in their category. If they’re any higher than fourth, if they’re in first, second or third, they’re probably either the category leader or something very, very close to. And if they’re lower than tenth, then  they don’t have the weight and they don’t have the mass to be able to have an impact. And that’s because an underdog has to have impact. You if you’ve got to

 

04:50

It’s pointless having just appetite if you don’t have the wherewithal to try and do something with that. And so we define it as between fourth and 10th. They generally have less than 500 employees or staff because if it goes beyond 500 people, things get stuck. you know, the layers of bureaucracy kind of kill that appetite and that desire to move forwards. And they’ve probably got a marketer.

 

05:20

with some proper big brand experience, someone that knows what it’s like to be at the top, to then know how hard you have to work, what levers you have to pull in order to get to being  one of those top brands in a category. So that’s how we define it. And it’s really simple. Not everyone agrees with it.  A lot of people think that they’re underdogs and they’re like, 20th in the category and they’ve been going two minutes. And I’m like, that’s fine. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but…

 

05:50

You you aren’t an underdog by that definition. You need to have some weight and some value and some mass to kind of, you know, to be able to utilize that to move forwards. I wasn’t part of the initial conversation with you and Anne. And when I was looking at the outline, the four to 10 really struck me and I’m not challenging. I’m just really asking the question. Like, so how did you get to that? Because it feels like

 

06:16

Kind of a lot. I mean, I hear your point right on like, if you’ve been here for two minutes and you’re 20th, like totally appreciate that. Get the one to three. But how did you land on that specific number? Or is it like four for certain types of industries and 10 for others? Like just talk a little bit more or maybe through examples. I would love to hear more about that piece. There is, is method to my madness.  Oh, I believe it.  Thousands wouldn’t.  And it’s really interesting because you are correct.

 

06:46

that different categories have different sort of dynamics and therefore, you know, your, um,  that kind of fourth to 10th shifts, but that’s our kind of  the sort of our broadest sense. But also interestingly, and I’ll give you an example of a client of ours.  Interestingly, you can have  different category market shares for the same brand in different parts of the world. So for example,

 

07:16

One of our clients is Brooks running shoes.  You guys are American, you know, know, know, Brooks running shoe, right? In the U S they would be considered to be a top brand of their category. So in the performance running shoe world, so we’re not considering my fashion shoes is performance running. Like, you know, you, you run two or three times a week, that kind of person, that category, a running shoe, they would be second or third.

 

07:45

depending on  how you define the market. Now, we don’t work with them in the US, we work with them in Europe, with their agency of record in Europe, and their sixth in Europe. Now, there are a number of reasons for that, but it’s a very different category dynamic. The discussions that are going on in Europe, within Brooks, are different to how they’re going on in  the US.  The competitors that they have to compete with,

 

08:14

are different in the US and in  Europe. So it isn’t just categories that define what that kind of force to tend is. It can also be the,  you know, the region or the country that you’re in. And those kinds of things can have us, you know,  a bearing. But in our experience, like I said, we’ve been this a long, time. When you try to find those, like, how do we define it? You’ve got to try and find the tightest,  broadest.

 

08:41

definition, you you can’t, we want to make it tight, but we can’t make it so tight that it’s actually a worthless exercise is that if you are fourth to 10th, you have less than 500 staff, you have a marketer with big brand experience. And like I say, that single defining characteristic, you have the appetite with the, the oomph, you know, the, the mass to be able to do something with that appetite.

 

09:09

those are the defining characteristics. So it’s interesting because I hadn’t really thought about it, although I should have. So ding on my part, the fact that you can be different in different parts of the world. Right. So continuing on the Brooks running shoe piece, say a little more about what happens in the market to make them sixth versus  first, second or third. First question. And then also

 

09:35

What does that look like for them as a team? Because like we said with our target audience, right? We’re talking to a lot of people about how to be marketers within their organizations and how to think differently. So I imagine whether it’s different teams  or it’s,  I don’t know, different cuts of the business. I don’t know how, how exactly, but talk a little bit about the internal to external, what that then looks like for them when they go to a tackle number six place versus one of the top over here. Well, the first thing of course is that there, so if we continue using

 

10:04

Brooks as our example, you know, why not? They’re a hundred year old brand, but they’ve been a hundred years old in, I mean, they made ballet shoes before they made running shoes, you know what  And that’s where they started out, right? So they’re a hundred year old brand in the U.S. In Europe, they’re pretty, you know, considerably younger than that. I think they’re about 30 years old. So straight away, there’s a difference in  the history that they have in those markets.  And then actually,  if anyone’s interested in

 

10:33

in the kind of the Brook story, I’d recommend they listen to the recently retired CEO, Jim Webber, who was the CEO for 20 years. 20 year, like a brand like Brook’s been a CEO for 20 years, extraordinary. But he gave an interview on the podcast acquired, which I don’t want to point anyone to any competing podcasts, but it’s another podcast. What are you doing, Paul? No, we share the love. We share the love. You know, in that he talks about

 

11:00

the  focus that went so when he took over 25 years ago, 24 years ago, whenever it was, they were  the dad’s barbecue trainer,  that  sneaker.  Dads wore them  to barbecue on a Saturday afternoon and they had probably, they had a gazillion different product lines. There was very little focus in the business.

 

11:26

And he realized that the way for them to compete was to focus on their niche, their niche, and  focus on that for year after year after year after year. Now that’s something that Berkshire Hathaway saw, you know, 20 years ago. So they’re a Berkshire Hathaway brand. You know, in my mind, you know, if Warren says you, you you cut the mustard, then you you cut the mustard. Must be worth something.  Yeah, he’s like, he’s, he’s a pretty good  judge of business and character.

 

11:55

So the challenge  was global because they had far too many product lines 30 years ago, everywhere, wherever they were. But it was more pronounced in the US because it was their biggest market. So it became a much more focused business. then  you then have incumbent brands that are inherently local.  So you have brands,  for example,  in Europe, Adidas,

 

12:23

Adidas would be,  you know, that’s a local brand, even though it’s a global brand, you know, feel there’s an affinity to it. You know, for example, I Solomon would be another one, you know, where they’re, these are local. So they have a much higher affinity just by being a local brand. And the same goes with, know, in the U S Brooks would be considered a local brand, even though it is a  global brand because they’re, you know, an American sort of home brand as it were. So there’s these different things that kind of feed into it.

 

12:53

But like I said,  I always try to keep things really, really simple. And it’s about boiling down to these common characteristics. You can almost like, as a bit of a checklist, am I an underdog? And you can go down the list and you tick it yes or no.  No, they are binary.  by their very name, for us to have a definition, have to be  binary. And that’s how we then use that, because it’s those characteristics.

 

13:22

And they do there, there was a there was a common DNA in that type of business. If they have those, if they tick all those boxes, there was a common, you know, an esprit de corps, you know, I live in France, let’s throw in some French phrases, you know, this common, like, we’re in it together, like there’s this kind of like common, there’s this concept of common thread and sort of fire in the belly that binds people together and can with the right leadership and the right go to market strategy can

 

13:52

galvanize a business and fire it forwards. This whole definition of underdog is really quite interesting as I consider even  some of our clients  and classify them. Although I  wonder if they feel that they are underdogs or not.  And I think because in the context of United States, it’s like everybody’s looking to be the market leader.

 

14:18

You don’t sit there and be like, I’m  okay being an underdog brand. Everybody wants to be the market leader or they’re continuing to grow, grow, grow, grow, which when you’re talking about that esprit de corps and you’re talking about the galvanization of teams, what we see break down a lot in these businesses is when they start like that, even if they don’t want to, they call themselves underdog brand or not and they’re having some level of success. And then all of a sudden,

 

14:45

they want to grow and be bigger and they’ve lost what has made them so special to begin with. So my question is, and maybe it’s a kind of like a two-part question, you take it where you want to Paul,  is when you are  helping and supporting and serving these underdog brands, are you helping and supporting them in a way that they are successful as underdog brands? Or are you helping them figure out how to be a market leader? We don’t work with anybody that hasn’t had some level of success already.

 

15:15

in order to kind of get into the sweet spot of where we add the most value, they have to have had some success, you know, kind of getting to the point that they’re at, you know, they’re not sort of a  basket case where they’re just sort of meandering around. And that’s fine. You know, like we have, we’re very specific about who, know, who we add the most value to.  Now your question has kind of two answers really, because  some brands

 

15:40

will have grown really well and the tactics that they’ve employed and the strategy  they’ve developed and the tactics that they’ve deployed have got them to a point. And then that strategy and those tactics,  they’re not the right tactics to take them forward from where they  are today going forwards. They can’t do the same things over and over and over again. And so our advice at that point is that they need to pause, review, diagnose the problem.

 

16:10

prescribed the answer and then go. It really fire  in the right direction. Whereas there’d be other brands that  have employed the right strategy. The strategy they’ve been following is the right strategy and the tactics they’ve been doing has been the right tactics, but they might need a little bit of refinement. They might need that just like almost like on an engine, you’ve got to tweak it a little bit and then pour a load of gasoline in there and then go again. So it isn’t like there’s one…

 

16:40

way into being an underdog and then working with us. There are typically those two routes.  It’s rare that there’s a third. We have at times worked with brands that are like what we would call like falling giants where they were the biggest and then they’ve sort of fallen away and fallen on hard times and then they’re now an underdog and they need to config, you know, sort of  reevaluate  where they’re at and go again. But that’s not really, that’s pretty rare and

 

17:07

You know, it’s not really sort of a way that we can define a category or define a way in to  being able to utilize this underdog spirit. More so they are those two, those  two ways in that I said something. Now examples of that, that kind of first way in. where the strategy and the tactics aren’t going to work anymore. You know, the ones that got them this far aren’t going to be the same ones to move them forward. Would probably be a.

 

17:36

digital focused,  digital orientated, possibly a digital product as the product or service that they sell. Because those types of brands, typically lean the strategy and the tactics they grab on day one are digital orientated and they’re able to  really refine that go to market activity incredibly well. they know  their digital engine is absolutely purring.

 

18:03

for every dollar that they put in, they’re getting eight back and they’re like, is flying. But what happens is, as we know from, know, Ehrenberg-Bass Institute, the research from Byron Sharp, only 5 % of your market is ever in market, 95 % of your market is future buyers. know, align that to the long and the short of it from Bin and Field. Broadly speaking, 60 % of your spend should be on the long and 40 % should be on the short.

 

18:33

It does vary depending on category. Those things almost come to roost in a digital brand like that, where they’ve saturated the seekers. They’ve saturated everybody that’s in market, all that 5%. And they hit what Tom Roach and Dr. Grace Kite in some research from the UK call the performance plateau. They kind of hit this plateau where they’re like, right, well, you know, we’re no longer getting $8 for every dollar we’re putting in. We’re like one or maybe less  back.

 

19:02

And so there is a really good example of a brand or type of brand  that the tactics and the strategy have to evolve and they have to change. Whereas other brands, they  may have already gone through that. They may have started employing, you know, what you’d sort of consider to be more broadcast media, longer, you know, sort of more mature, creative. They might have higher levels of penetration, but then there might be a new

 

19:31

Entrant into the market or there might be a  complete shift in the market that they have been caught unaware on or something like that where they haven’t really got to Fundamentally change they just have to tweak those  a few elements to refine what it is they’re doing and then like I say like pour the fuel on and go Can brands  be successful?

 

19:55

as long-term underdog brands or is the goal always to try to rise up and be a market leader? And if so, if they can be successful as an underdog brand, what does that look like? What’s the playbook for that? Yes, you can.  And I know there’s probably a million management consultants that will be turning in their grave  when they hear me say, well, you can be successful by staying as an underdog. Because they go, well, how do we sell them fees?

 

20:24

squeeze them for more cash.  But that’s the truth. You can be a really successful business with high levels of profitability and good growth and remain where you are  in the category. You can.  That’s the uncomfortable truth of capitalism. Not  everything happens  as you want it to. The thing that’s different there is that in order to, you need to strive.

 

20:52

It’s almost like, you know, if you’re not striving, you’re striving just to tread water. You know, the idea that if you, if you want, if you end up treading water, you didn’t tread water because you wanted to tread water. You were trying to gain in some way. It just didn’t quite work out or the market grew as a whole. And therefore you just by striving, you just maintain your position. That’s an entirely reasonable and entirely probable outcome in a number of cases. But the

 

21:21

The idea that in order to be successful, you have to strive. And if I think about our American clients that we’ve had over the years and have now, there is, that I would say is a really common trait in the American psyche, that the sort of the willingness to keep on trying, not be content with the status quo, regardless of where they are in the market, in terms of market share. That is trait that I found.

 

21:51

Now that’s me like massive broad brush. kind of, but like that’s just a, you know, know, it varies, you know, obviously company to company and different parts of the country. But like I’d say that’s a, that is a defining traits within, within American, you know, U S based brands that we’ve worked with over the years. So kind of along a similar train of thought to what, where Anne was going, how do these companies feel about this is my first question. Like when you

 

22:18

Communicate, know, underdog, how does that sit? And I appreciate the fact that like they have the fire in their belly and they wanna, you know, they’re gonna strive to do these things and all of that, but that’s part one.  And then two, how do you  get them on a path that works for them knowing that they may not be trying to get to those higher levels? So like Ann and I talk a lot in terms of KPIs or, you know, the strategic planning or, you know, what do those types of things look like for these companies  and what do you have to do to get them comfortable with?

 

22:47

Look, I’m not sure you’re going to be that or if you want to go be that, that’s not us. Maybe you can totally fair to say that. What does that look like with those conversations? The first kind of point around that is if you are the type of person is attracted to working  in an underdog brand and you are therefore surrounded by other people that have that same  DNA, it does not take much to get these people fired up. They’re like, you know, they are are people that fancy it.

 

23:16

You know, like they don’t need much. They don’t need to be G’d up too much, you know.  You know, they are people that have actively sought that type of role or that type of company or that type of environment. And they’ve shunned larger organizations and they’ve they’ve actively chosen not to go after those. Now, I know the job market’s, you know, it’s awful at the moment. So maybe they haven’t chosen right now, but like sort of historically, that’s a that’s a genuine

 

23:44

trends that you see and you see all the time. And then, I don’t know if this sort of totally answers your question, but those types of people, how do you level with them? How do you give them like real, proper advice? The kind of advice that is meaningful and moves their business forward. It’s like, it’s the oldest thing. It’s like, it’s being honest. Like, yeah, people…

 

24:13

Anyone can tell you I’ll turn you into a superstar. Like anyone can sell that. That doesn’t take any  skill whatsoever. And invariably anyone that says  that they can do it and it’s easy has never done it.  know, it’s like this stuff is not easy. But  in my experience, the best way or the best outcomes come from pure honesty. That’s all we deliver.  know,  my name’s on the door.

 

24:42

Like if someone’s annoyed at me, like they’re going to come for me. Like, you know, like I’ve got a lot to lose in us not being successful. So I’ve always taken the, the sort of approach that we need to be honest in our assessments. And that comes from a genuine connection between us and the, the client, a genuine chemistry. We’re really, we’re quite picky about the kind of clients we work with because there needs to be that genuine or sort of mutual two way.

 

25:12

street. You know, we have rules of engagement. We have there’s lots of things that create the environment for the best,  the best relationship. And it comes down to  the client being  really honest about what they actually want. And then us being really honest about the chances of success of that desired state, or maybe the actually more likely the steps it’s going to take  to get to that point.

 

25:41

know, success has many fathers, right? You know, like this idea that we we would be the only influential element in the success story of  whatever that, you know, that client is. Success has many fathers. There’d be lots of people that would have contributed to the success, but  that idea of being honest,  being really practical  in the feasibility and  the probability of success and mapping out a path to success.

 

26:11

which is always different to every client,  know,  the path that they want to take. But it  really comes out and that’s really old school, right? Just being honest. You know, that doesn’t get you a keynote slot at a TED talk, does it? Actually,  the success to capitalism is just being honest, you know,  and being reasonable.  But that’s  a huge part of it, right? But that doesn’t get you the headline slot,  but it really is.

 

26:40

a massive component of the success. Yeah. We call ourselves fourth rate people for the same philosophy, but I’ll tell you, Paul, if you get in trouble, you could just do what I do and you blame the other person. So  when I get into one, it’s April. There’s two names on the door, so it wasn’t me.  was April. There’s always somebody else to throw under the bus, right? That’s right. That’s why it’s a benefit of having two people. Oh, yeah, that’s really honest, Dan. That’s great.  mean,  call a spade a spade, I guess.

 

27:07

But what I’d love to do is get a little bit tangible here because we’ve talked about the process. We’ve talked about the strategy of it all. I would love if you could  go into some some detail, some examples of how does it look different for these underdog brands? What does the work look like? What is the the strategic guidance that you give them in order to be able to win as an underdog brand? Can you get a little tangible on us for a second? There are a number of things that we immediately

 

27:38

die, you know, sort of  can see in a, in a, in a brand. Every brand is doing too much. Now they’re just, they’re doing way too much. No brand is ever doing not enough.  You know, like whether that be too much product  or too much innovation, too much  M and A activity,  too much media activity, they’re always doing. They,  the vast majority of underdogs feel like the

 

28:06

the busier they are,  sort of the more likely they are to succeed. Now that can be,  that can be a route to success, it can. But invariably in my experience, like people need less things to do, more time to concentrate on fewer things and make them  really good, make them really powerful levers that they can pull that big impact on the business.

 

28:36

And so that’s  sort of almost like the lens that we look through when it comes to like what tangibly can you,  should you or could you  be doing. All of this starts with market orientation. Like the marketing department is the voice of the customer into a business.  The hard work from a strategic point of view should go into the value proposition, the positioning, targeting, then should move into price.

 

29:05

product roadmap, all of this stuff that I mean, we could do like an episode on each one of those. But ultimately, you know, eventually you net out of the four P’s of marketing, promotion. Like you’ve got to like get your spear out, start jabbing some people with it to get their attention. And the way that we look at it is we are the pointiest end of the spear. So anything that isn’t or shouldn’t be at the pointiest end of the spear,

 

29:35

get rid of it. So like, in my experience, someone says like, what should I be doing or not doing? I’m like, you know what you should do? Cut 50 % of what you’re doing already. and they’re like, oh my God, I can’t do that. You know, like, I’m like, I know it’s a flippant comment, but like, just get rid of 50%. And you could, if you wanted to just choose a random 50%, you know, like if you wanted to be really gung ho about it, but actually no one’s going to do that.

 

30:03

but it gets them in the right mindset to then go, right, well, I need to actually now really look at the effectiveness  of the things I’ve got going on. And so  we get them to, and we do this with them, assess all of the things that they’ve got going out and ask a series of, there’s a matrix that we follow that nets out at essentially focusing on the top three things that you are currently doing. So  the three things that are either the most effective,

 

30:33

or the most powerful that sit on the pointiest end of your spear. You know, when you’re thinking about your promotion of the four P’s, those are the three things. So those are the three things that you’ve already got out in market that are already working. They’re the most powerful things that you’ve got. Get rid of all of the rest of the other stuff. Concentrate your effort on that. Immediately you’re going to be able to have an impact. then whilst those things are kind of, you know, keeping the lights on as it were, then you can…

 

31:02

really get under the hood as to how you can move this forward, whether that from a strategic and then a tactical point of view. But we have to go back to my original point. All of this has to come from market orientation. So who is the, know, what is the customer? Who are they like? What, know, what do they, what do they care about? What do they not care about? What triggers them? There’s a whole sort of host of things. And then you can align that to category entry points.  So CPS, which have

 

31:32

different, which is a trigger, which is different to pain. Like there is no such thing as a pain point that doesn’t exist. Humans will quite happily live in pain for decades, you know, and not by the thing that resolves the pain. That’s because humans are irrational, you know. You have to have a trigger. have to concentrate on everything about that. But it all comes from like, what can we do to keep the lights on whilst we focus on those?

 

32:00

realigning a strategy and then  the tactics that we’re going to go and take out to market. And like I say,  in our experience, we get the brands and we do it with them to focus on and essentially go into this matrix of highlighting the top three. Do those three. Because in our experience, they will account for a massive percentage, a huge majority. They might account for anywhere between 60 and 80 % of the sort of total effectiveness of the go to market.

 

32:30

stuff that goes out from a brand. So if you’re losing 20, 30%, but you’ve taken a hundred jobs off the jobs to do board, like that’s a worthwhile exercise. Therefore, frees you up to then do some really deep thinking to that sort of set the foundations for the next step. What would be really helpful if you can give some examples of what this has looked like for a specific client of yours, like whatever you can share. So.

 

32:56

people can really get that picture in their mind. Cause I know with you too, in part of, know, as we were talking about this underdog process, it’s like, when you said that appetite, it’s like really going at it like doing some things that big brands can’t do or won’t do because they are sitting up there at the top and they don’t want to lose. So it’s a very different strategy and mentality to like play to win. Right. And so maybe you can give some examples of how you’ve helped some of these brands figure out on that pointy end of the spear, how to show up.

 

33:26

some of the ad campaigns you’ve done in order to really get them that those four P’s and get them in the awareness set and have people and our customers choose them. So can you give us some of that? First things first, we know from the research again from Ehrenberg Bass that the consideration set is typically two brands. 90 % of people will consider two brands. So 78 % of people will consider one brand.

 

33:56

12 % of people will consider two brands. So 90 % consider two brands. Therefore, every single marketer, every single brand, every brand owner should ignore the 10 % of crazy people that consider three or more brands. They are worthless. So that’s the sort of the set. you’ve got to, like, if you’re not inside the two, you’re toast. So the strategy, if the strategy doesn’t involve ensuring that you’re one of those two brands, then I would.

 

34:25

immediately question the strategy. Then we kind of come down like the tangibles. We also know from  Google’s research, Think  Google research from the messy middle, that  the way that people buy both B2C and B2B is they sit in the infinity loop of the messy middle. They will sit there for years, you know, and that’s multiple stakeholders. If it’s a B2B sense, there’s multiple stakeholders. I’m sure that

 

34:52

your B2B audience will have mapped out on their demand gen, they’d have mapped out the four or five different stakeholders they have and whether they’re responsible,  consulted,  on a racing model, I’m sure they’re all of that. But those people are sat there in an infinity loop. And so our job as an advertising campaign or our job in order to get inside that consideration set is to constantly expose those stakeholders to the brand.

 

35:20

whilst they’re sat there in the infinity loop. And then there will be a trigger. There will be a thing that you can’t control as the brand that then brings them from the infinity loop into consideration. And then you need to be one of those two brands that are in consideration. Now, as an example of that, we have a client in the US.  are actually a UK US brand called ICIS. They have a

 

35:49

terrible name sounds like ISIS. They’ve been around 100 years well before ISIS was a thing like in the Middle East, right? And they sell their sort of their offering is that they sell reporting for the chemical, you know, petrol industries, petrochemical, those types of things, real old school brand. And they’re based in London and Houston, you know, shock horror, they’re based in Houston, if they’re involved in the petrochemical industry. They’d acquired another American

 

36:18

brand that did something, know, adjunct, but like slightly similar. was a,  again, I’m sure a management consultant convinced them of the merits of this purchase, but they’re quite a  sizable Houston based brand. And they were doing that because they wanted to change the value proposition. So the value prop when they were just on their own was that they sort of supplied all the data. Like it was like,  it was like a data pipe. And you just sort of try to, you know, drink from a fire hose of all this data that they kind of plowed at you.

 

36:48

And they bought this business because this business was boots on the ground,  real like proper knowledge, real insight that could add value to the data. Now, we then  were working with them on this, how they’re gonna communicate this. And we worked on a new proposition, which was this sort of best of both worlds. That’s what it had become.  Now, what’s the one thing that a big brand or any brand

 

37:16

won’t, you know, what will they not do? They will always tell their audience to buy their thing, whatever it is that they’ve got. They never say, don’t buy our thing.  Unless you’re Patagonia and it says, you know, don’t buy our fleece on a black Friday or whatever. They also buy our things. Right. What is the thing that the biggest brand can’t, won’t or daren’t do? When we talk about appetite, that is what appetite is. It’s the appetite or the ability or the desire to do

 

37:45

The thing that the biggest brand can’t won’t or dent. So what won’t the biggest brand do in that in that instance, if you’re B2B sales, biggest brand won’t say don’t buy our stuff. Cause no one ever says that. So we ran a campaign that said exactly that. Don’t buy our data.  Then the byline, cause that’s a massive letters. Don’t buy our data. Oh my God, I’ve broken the prediction. No one ever says that. says, you know, the byline being buy our shared intelligence. So immediately.

 

38:15

changing the conversation from here’s just this stuff, we’re gonna try to shove it down your throat to, ah, it’s a best of both worlds. So I actually, yeah, I quite like intelligence. I wanna buy some of that. And immediately doing the thing as an underdog that the biggest brand in that category can’t, won’t or dent. So that’s like a really tangible thing. And that’s something they’re running with now. They run with it for two or three years.

 

38:43

infiltrates everything they do when they go to a trade show, when they go to a conference, when the  CEO has a media appearance on Bloomberg, like when they release a case study or a white paper or like whatever. Everything that they do is  from that single defining thought that is don’t buy our data, buy  our shared intelligence. Now buy our intelligence because as part of the  evolution.

 

39:12

The evolution of the acquisition is that you kind of like drop that sharedness and it becomes one. So we talked about the fact,  you know, I asked the question of what does it take to convince these folks and we talked about how it’s just inherently in people that they’re willing to go in there and be an underdog.  So I would love a little insight into that conversation being part of the creative process for years, right? Like you go with the super risky, the really safe and then the one you really want, right? There’s all this approaches to how you sell in the work.

 

39:41

So just, and I’m thinking about our clients in the context of this and being brave enough to go and do that. So I would love some insight into, did it take a lot to sell that in? Or is it like, no, that’s totally obvious. We’re going to do exactly what they wouldn’t do and let’s press go. You know what? It’s not the first time creatives are frustrated. You know, they are like this, what you just described there happens countless times every day, all over the world.  mantra and our mindset  is if the client

 

40:10

isn’t buying, it’s because we’ve not done something. There is nothing too risky, but the client, if the client feels like it’s too risky, then we have not done our job to  take them on that journey. Now, if that conversation is happening at a creative point, like you said there, like the  run of the mill, the crazy and the middle one that you want them to take.

 

40:39

If you’re having that conversation around at that point, kind of  creative level, then the strategy was never actually signed off.  this,  that’s how  in our work, you know, my conversations and in my mindset, the only way you can take a client on that journey to the promised land is to get complete alignment  on the strategy because the strategy will inform.

 

41:10

the creative expression.  The strategy highlights the white space. It illuminates  the risks  that are involved in occupying that white space. It illuminates  the upside  of choosing that white space. And so if you then get to the  element,  the creative expression, like how we’re expressing this, like how are we going to go out to market? And there’s a hesitancy that it means that there wasn’t alignment.

 

41:39

at the strategic point. so you go all the way back. Like there isn’t like a, hey, right. Let me try and I’m to get my selling boots on. I’m going to try and persuade you of the merits of this. No, we’re to go all the way back. Yep. So we’ve established the strategy and it’s everyone’s in agreement. I’m I’ve been doing this too long now to kind of like blame clients. It’s like

 

42:08

It’s  down to me. Like  if something fails, it’s like my responsibility to take a client on that journey. And if they kind of get towards the end and they’re getting a bit nervous and then that nervousness creates a problem, like we can’t do this, we can’t do that, then that’s for me. And I’ve sold some weird  shit.

 

42:35

I’ve been banned all over the world, know, like our advertising, like, you know, and being banned has been part of the strategy at that point. You know, see, when you go through the strategy, we’re going to make stuff that gets banned. And so if that isn’t agreed, when you then show them some stuff that will get banned and they go, oh, that’s going to get banned. We can’t do that. go, Well, like, you know, the strategy was it was around flying really close to the line or going over it. That was

 

43:04

was agreed as how we were going to go and build mental availability and awareness around a salient point. Yeah, like it’s on it’s on me if that happens. Well, you’re speaking our language because this is called strategic council podcast. So yeah, but point really well taken. mean, same philosophy on our end of going back to the original, whatever you call it, brief strategy document, whatever that is to say we did.

 

43:31

align and agree to this. And then I think on the other side also totally appreciate it’s not on the client, it is on us, but holding accountable all the people to say this is what we agreed to. And like you said, it’s going to be risky, it’s going to be different. We said we were going to do this to disrupt or whatever it is and making sure that  no one’s allowed quote unquote off the hook because we all established from the beginning that this is what we were going to go and do. And then the commitment to not put work out that sacrifices that strategy or waters it down or what have you.

 

44:01

Yeah, a couple of things around that would be two things that we do that I think are really, useful in that. I get it. It’s no, you know, no, it’s like these aren’t these aren’t like robots. These are real people with mortgages, maybe even second mortgages, you know, like they got a second home or they got kids in private school. That is a lot to lose if they get fired. You know, it’s a lot that unravels from then going, yeah, poor wicked. Let’s

 

44:29

Let’s go get back.  You know, like, get it. Like, it’s a lot. But there’s two things  that we do. The first is when we’re talking about the strategy, we will give  what we call creative springboards to show the client when we go, right, here’s the strategy and you’re kind of approving it. And they go, well, I’m struggling to kind of see how this might go out into the world. You go, well, we can’t come up with the idea, you know, yet, because we need to go through the process. But

 

44:57

Here’s some springboards of kind of like essentially like kind of areas that we’re going to go and play in. And that gives them a sense of, right, I kind of get it. You know, this is kind of what you mean. This is kind of what you’ve got in mind as a possibility. they can sort of forecast a little bit. Now it’s not an exact science, but it gives some level of clarity and some level of  kind of confidence  in the decision that the client is making at that point. We tend to work with

 

45:26

Mavericks, we call them mavericks. People that are prepared to play on the fringes and  use ask for forgiveness, not permission. These types of this kind of mindset. So we respond really well to  the mavericky client within a business. The kind of the person that  has the political currency to kind of not play by everyone else’s rules. Everyone else in the business knows

 

45:56

Let’s say it’s the marketing director or the CMO. Everyone else in the business knows that they, they are hot. They know exactly what they’re doing, but they don’t play by anybody else’s rules and everyone gives them a bit of latitude. They give them the space to essentially like break the rules. Not crazy, but you know,  on the fringes, they’re not going around breaking every rule, but they, they, they’re given that kind of latitude and that, flexibility to, to get things done and not play by everyone else’s rules. And if you

 

46:26

align that with the things that I’ve been talking about,  you’re almost like maximizing that that sort of opportunity as an underdog. The one point I want to bring out that  you said that I think it’s really important for  underdog brands, if a lot of the people listening are starting to kind of identify with that, and maybe that they are that is that it is a different mindset when you’re down in that place.  And like we’ve thrown out some of the the differences about the appetite and the attitude.

 

46:56

And the goals even look different, right? And so we see so much though, the big brand thinking in the underdog world. And I mean, I think it’s an incredible mistake because there is a whole lot more freedom to be a little bit more aggressive, if you will, with regards to how you want to show up and still within the realm of being appropriate and living still through your brand character and your brand tone, but

 

47:24

being able to play on the fringes, being able to kind of  be a little controversial if you,  and again, a right way that’s aligned with your brand. mean, so  these are, this is a spirit that should be, I think, adopted and appreciated versus sitting in that underdog spot trying to play the same game as the market leaders and thinking you’re somehow going to win in that. Now you can’t play the same game as that they’re playing and win. They’ve already…

 

47:52

gotten that they’ve already won that that’s their little trophy you have to win in a different kind of context. So I mean for me that’s kind of one of the mistakes I see underdog brands make speak to that more or what are some of the other ones that you’ve seen them make. It’s very simple underdogs can’t win  using a big brand playbook it’s not possible. The big brand playbook is really powerful like so powerful they’re the biggest brand or one of the biggest brands in the category so like.

 

48:23

It works  and it works for them, but it requires  absolutely stacks of cash and it requires a level  of credibility, a high level of mental availability, a high level of physical availability. It requires all the things that they have as advantages that the underdog doesn’t have. And capitalism just isn’t fair. It’s not fair. I don’t know how more it’s sort of more explicitly said that like life in fair capitalism in fair. Like this is how it goes. Right.

 

48:53

So  using the same playbook as a big brand when you’re an underdog,  like,  it’s sort of hiding to nothing. It isn’t going to give you  the things  that you want. It’s not gonna take you to where you want to go. And it requires a lot of stuff that you don’t have. Like I say, it requires physical availability, mental availability,  much bigger budgets, the ability to book huge bits of media.

 

49:22

partnerships with other big brands like yada yada yada yada yada like loads of stuff that the underdog just does not have. There is one thing, there is one advantage that underdogs have  over the biggest brands in their category and they need to focus on that as their like you know their David and Goliath, the slingshot. Like that’s what they have to focus, they have only got one and that is the ability to out think the competition. That is it.

 

49:51

They have no others. They have no others. got less cash, less incumbent status, less retail footprint, less D to C, less mental availability. Like the grandma hasn’t heard of you. Like, it’s just like the list goes on and on and on and on, right? So they got one thing and that is to outthink the competition. And that is to do the thing that the competition can’t, won’t or daren’t do. That is your one, as an underdog, it’s your one advantage that you then layer into a playbook.

 

50:20

I mean, we’ve written a playbook for underdogs, 13 and a half ways to grow your underdog brand. Like it’s using those elements alongside the creative appetite to do the thing that the competition can’t, won’t or dent. And those people go, oh yeah, just like, can I just put like another 10 % of my media spend? You know what? You’re you’re so on the fringes.

 

50:50

Like, fine, go do it. Because you just don’t have the upside. That’s why we go back to that. The defining aspect of an underdog versus a challenger brand is appetite. And so you need to fancy it. You need to be up for the fight. Therefore, if you have that, you will have the desire to outthink and you will ultimately come out with something that the biggest brand cart won’t or dent. And you apply that.

 

51:20

through the underdog playbook as opposed to a large brand playbook and you’re stacking  more of the chips in your favor. Does it mean it will work that it’s fail proof? Absolutely not. Like you’re just stacking more of the chips so it’s more probable that you will have success compared to what you were doing otherwise. And that’s what  ultimately grows underdog brands.  That’s ultimately what,  let’s have a look.

 

51:49

some good like  US lights will ultimately grow a grew a Dollar Shave Club. It was ultimately what you know, and I’m sure you have intimate knowledge.  I live through that one. It’s ultimately what’s growing  liquid death that you the water brand. These things  in the UK is ultimately what’s growing paddy power, the  betting company. It’s like,  ultimately, these are the types of the appetite to like fancy it.

 

52:19

And like I say, not everyone has it and that’s fine. But if you layer that, if you think about it as an equation, it’s that appetite plus the playbook of an underdog as opposed to a big brand will increase your chances of success. That increases the probability of success. That is a fantastic way I think to put a bow on all of this. And I hope everybody goes and downloads that because I know a lot of people now are like, it’s probably switched from like, I’m not an underdog brand to like,

 

52:48

I can embrace being an underdog brand. Exactly. And I think it’s a really like powerful place to be. But before we let you go and let you close this out, do you want to do some rapid fires? Yeah, go for it. All right. All right. So you you live in France right now, yes? Yes. So I’m trying to convince April to do a parish trip for my  50th birthday.  No personal agenda on this show. No personal agenda.  So  what is that? Well, I don’t even know where do you live in France?

 

53:17

I live in the Alps. live in the mountains.  Oh, amazing. So convince April that she should go on this Paris trip with me.  A quick fire.  fire. her your top elevator pitch. It’s a country like no other in the world.  That’s all I can say. is. I mean, I love the UK, but I have a love affair with France. It’s yeah, it’s like it’s unlike any other country in the world.

 

53:44

And I’ve been very fortunate to travel all over the world, quite, you know, a whole bunch of countries. And whether it be Paris,  whether it be Chamonix, where I live, you know, I live just outside Chamonix, it doesn’t matter where you are. It’s a country.  It’s a tapestry.  I love that. And that’s what you get. I love that. I agree. All right. What is the  best advice you’ve ever gotten? Don’t follow your passions. Oh.

 

54:14

because everyone says, oh, follow your passions. Because your passions change. From when you’re 18, I mean, my passions were, you know, try to meet as many girls as possible and try to drink as much beer as possible. You know, like, if I’d have been following that, that’s like, that’s not good advice. Maybe it was. But you know, like the idea that your passions are resolute and they stay with you forever. Like, you meander, don’t you? Your taste and your…

 

54:43

the things that you’re interested in and the things you’re passionate about change over life. this idea that you have to choose, you know, as a younger self, as an 18 year old, follow your passions mate. And the three things I was interested then, they’re the things I’m be interested in for the rest of my life is probably bad advice. It should be to, you know, go and explore, go find new stuff would be the better yin to that yang. Because everyone says follow your passions.

 

55:13

Come on,  we can be a bit more, we can be more creative than that, surely. Love it.  What are you reading right now? I am actually reading, it’s over there, a book called  Lover Man.  It’s not the Karma Sutra, don’t worry.  So it’s  a book,  it  won the Booker Prize in the, so the Booker Prize is a really sort of

 

55:42

well regarded award in the UK. And it’s about some people that moved from Antigua to the UK as part of the Windrush generation. So they moved over in like the 1950s and moved to London and then they grew this life and, and it’s fantastic. And bizarrely, I actually picked it up when I was on holiday in Antigua. It was a book from the UK. You know, we we needed those bookshelves that people leave books for or whatever. So I picked it up and

 

56:11

I read it on the beach in Antigua and I’m just finishing it off here  and it’s brilliant. I love fiction as much as I do nonfiction. I’m not really into business books.  like, you know, kind of fire up the mind, you know,  like get those creative synapses firing off. Love it. Thanks for sharing that. Well, I mean, this has been amazing. Why don’t you tell people where to find you if there’s anything else that…

 

56:38

We didn’t ask that you feel it’s important to leave everybody with. I think the best thing that somebody could do  is  download our 13 and a half ways to grow your own dog brand. So it’s for free.  All you have to do is give me your email address and I won’t spam you. I promise.  It’s on its fourth edition. We’ve updated it every year for the last four years. It’s about to have its fifth edition. And so

 

57:06

If you download it before we update it, you’ll then get sent the fourth one and then we’ll send you the fifth one when it  gets updated. That is the best, most valuable thing that somebody could do  to kind of move the agenda for them tomorrow. Like it’s full of things that they could do tomorrow and essentially gives them a playbook. And my advice would be don’t try and do all 13 and a half on day one. You know, maybe do one a month.

 

57:34

You know, and then in a year’s time, you, you know, you’d be in a far stronger position than you are now. That’s, that is the fundamentally the best thing that somebody could do to kind of help themselves and move the agenda. And they can find it on our website, mellorsmith.com. They can download it there. That’s awesome. And with that, we encourage all of our listeners to take at least one powerful insight you heard and put into practice. There’s a lot given here and definitely get the 13 and a half.

 

58:02

13 and a half ways to grow your underdog brand. Get that. And remember, Strategic Counsel is only effective if you put into action.  Did we spark something with this episode that you want to talk about further?  Reach out to us through our website, ForthRight-People.com. We can help you customize what you have heard to move your business and make sure to follow or subscribe to Strategic Counsel on your favorite podcast platform!