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Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Jul 23, 2024

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

In this episode, we’re talking the future of branding with Mitch Duckler. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Marketing Smarts: Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand

It can be difficult to keep up with the marketing and branding landscape – it’s always changing. Wouldn’t it be helpful to hear from top CMOs (Chief Marketing Officers) on the matter? That’s what our guest, Mitch Duckler, did in his new book, The Future-Ready Brand. Mitch is the Founder and Managing Director of FullSurge, a brand and marketing strategy consulting firm that helps clients accelerate business growth. You’ll hear his key insights from the book, how to find an authentic positioning for your brand, how to get personalization right, what to think about AI (Artificial Intelligence) and other new technologies, and the tried-and-true approaches across the marketing and branding landscape. This episode covers everything from branding to strategy. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • What motivated Mitch to write The Future-Ready Brand?
  • How are CMOs approaching personalization these days?
  • What are some of the most memorable takeaways from the book?
  • How do you keep the brand experience strong?
  • What is the biggest shift we’re seeing in business today?
  • How are businesses approaching KPIs?
  • What’s Mitch’s favorite band or music genre?
  • How are CMOs approaching promotions?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

  • Perspective from Top CMOs on the Future of Branding with Mitch Duckler, FullSurge and The Future-Ready Brand
    • [0:00] Welcome to Marketing Smarts
    • [0:22] Anne Candido, April Martini
    • [1:23] Connect with Mitch on LinkedIn, at FullSurge.com, and check out his new book The Future-Ready Brand
    • [1:41] What is his background?
    • [2:20] What motivated Mitch to write The Future-Ready Brand?
    • [3:08] CMO (Chief Marketing Officer)
    • [4:38] What are some of the most memorable takeaways from the book?
    • [5:24] What is the biggest shift we’re seeing in business today?
    • [7:45] What does it mean to be purpose-driven or purpose-led?
    • [11:32] Accenture
    • [12:15] Brand Positioning
    • [14:35] What other topics does Mitch cover in the book?
    • [18:32] How are CMOs approaching personalization these days?
    • [20:58] AI (Artificial Intelligence)
    • [24:38] How do you keep the brand experience strong?
    • [26:18] Brand Management
    • [26:55] We’d like to invite you to join ForthRight Women: The Cohort. This community is for females who are ambitious in their careers, but want an equally fulfilling personal life. For more information and to join the group, check out ForthRight-Women.com
    • [27:30] Minority Report, Tom Cruise
    • [29:35] How are businesses approaching KPIs (Key Performance Indicators)?
    • [32:02] How are CMOs approaching their marketing campaigns?
    • [34:35] How are they approaching promotions?
    • [39:32] What’s next for branding?
    • [43:02] COVID-19
    • Quick-Fire Questions

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:00
This is marketing smarts. A podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader No matter your level, and each episode will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to marketing smarts. I’m Anne Candido. And I am April Martini. And today we’re gonna talk about how top CMOs are navigating the current branding and marketing landscape, and how they’re seeing it change in the future. So the landscape it changes daily, it can be difficult to keep up with what marketing channels are the best how to effectively use them to build trust and relevance, the role of new tools like AI, and of course, how to measure it all to make sure that what you are doing is actually moving the business. And we’re going to tackle all of this today.

April Martini 0:52
Yes, and it’s important to note that even though we’re going to talk some big brands today, this insight can be translated to small and mid sized businesses, because we know we have a lot of you listening. So the principles are always the same scale is just different. And we’ll try to call those things out and add those nuances as we can when we get to them.

Anne Candido 1:11
And in case you guys are wondering, that is April, she’s suffering from a little bit of a sinus infection. So I didn’t just switch host on

April Martini 1:20
you guys ologies for my voice today.

Anne Candido 1:23
So today, we’re going to bring on a guest to discuss this topic, and somebody who knows a lot about this. And he’s going to talk about his insights related to all these fabulous topics. And that is Mitch Duckler. He is the founder and Managing Partner of full search and the author of the new book The Future-Ready brand. So Mitch, it’s great to have you you want to introduce yourself to everybody.

Mitch Duckler 1:42
Yes, it’s great to be with you both. Thanks for having me on. As you said, my name is Mitch Toggler, managing partner of fool Sergers is a brand and marketing strategy consultancy out of Chicago. And I just published my second book, which I’m hoping we can talk a little bit about today.

Anne Candido 2:00
Absolutely. And as everybody knows, me and April, are brand strategist at heart. So we expect that this is gonna be a fabulous conversation or focus on brand strategy. And please continue to listen, I hope that people just didn’t turn it off, right. Alright, so let’s get started. So Mitch, let’s start with your new book. So let’s just jump right into it. The Future-Ready brand? What motivated you to write the book, Why

Mitch Duckler 2:24
you through my client work, it was really evident that the world of marketing and brand building is being impacted pretty significantly by the confluence of really societal and technological trends. So what do I mean by that, on the societal side, there were at least three and each one of these are a chapter in the book, you know, a huge continued push towards increased transparency and purpose and branding, also at changing attitudes towards health and wellness, especially post pandemic, and then the emergence of Gen Z. And each of the CMOS that I interviewed for the book, and there are 43 of them, talked about those, to some extent. And then also on the technology front, I think we’re aware of most of these, but I put them into three buckets, also intelligence, reality, realities, and web three. So on the intelligence side, there’s artificial intelligence, machine learning, predictive analytics, and so forth. On the reality side, AR VR, Metaverse and so forth. And then platforms, web three, basically, and blockchain technology and tech tokenomics, and all the things that really blockchain really enable. So I wanted to determine how some of the best and brightest minds in the world of marketing are preparing for and actually dealing with these factors real time. So I set out to interview 43 of them, they’re mostly fortune 500, CMOs, 17, actually are in Forbes 50, most influential CMOS of the world. So I really feel fortunate to talk to some of the brightest minds in marketing.

April Martini 4:07
Well, that’s an incredible list. And we do love our research over here on the marketing smarts podcast. So clearly, you did your due diligence. And I think exactly what you outlined makes sense as far as like the high level buckets but would love just what are the you know, the the interviews that stick out most in your mind as it relates to either each of those topics, or just in general? Who kind of had the best story to tell like just give us a little more of a peek under the curtain, so to speak of what stories we can expect from the book.

Mitch Duckler 4:38
I know they all were interesting in their own way. I you know, I think some of the there’s a few that really stick out I had a great interview with Joe Kramer, who’s the CMO of Accenture, and she talked about purpose and how they actually went about identifying their purpose, the corporate purpose of Accenture and then very importantly how they emerge are three different concepts together, if you will, under this theme, the first being corporate purpose, then the second is the business strategy. And then the third their brand positioning or brand strategy. And it was really, it was really cool to see how that all came to life really under 101 umbrella that they identified as their purpose. And

Anne Candido 5:22
how’s that changing? Then how they’re doing business? How is that making it an inflection point? And what has been the shift that they’re seeing from before to now?

Mitch Duckler 5:33
You’re welcome on phase. One is that she indicated and I think this is this is true for most purpose driven companies and purpose driven brands is that, you know, it isn’t just the saying it’s far more than the CSR, right, a corporate social responsibility campaign, our platform, although those are all great to write, but when you are purpose driven, it really does influence everything you do in business, right? It is your it is it is your motivation, is the reason why you get out of bed and go to work in the morning. Right. And it informs a lot of decision making and informants very important strategic decisions that they make, you know, is this decision in concert with our corporate purpose and our brand strategy? You know, does it make sense with with our purpose, so it’s almost like a screen or a filter. And in that regard, and then she also talked about, which I found was really interesting, too, is how the, they have a brand positioning, which is based on the purpose, but the brand positioning has the ability to kind of ebb and flow and change and morph over time as, as the marketplace changes, or customer needs change, and etc. Right, then that’s kind of allowed them to fluctuate in order to remain relevant, but their purpose is pretty enduring, right? That that really doesn’t change. And they don’t foresee it really ever changing. It’s kind of who they are.

April Martini 7:00
Well, I mean, you brought up positioning, and we said at the beginning, this is one of our very favorite things to talk about. And I think it is really closely linked to purpose, as you said, and you know, one of the things you said we’ve had these conversations frequently lately, I feel from clients around the purpose really can’t be lip service. Right. And, you know, you said it can’t just be a platform, similar way of thinking. But I think it’s interesting the way you said the positioning can flex, but the purpose doesn’t. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that piece of things. Because I think if we’re talking about shifting, that is a shift, right? Like we used to say you put your stamp in the ground from a positioning standpoint. And it is what it is not that you don’t re examine it or flex it over time, or new things come into the marketplace. But being purpose led first is kind of a new way to look at things. So I would love more perspective around that.

Mitch Duckler 7:55
Sure. So the way she talked about it, and I think it’s fairly consistent with a number of the CMOS I spoke with and quite frankly, with the client work I do is they think about purpose on three different levels, like so the most base level is you might have a cause that you believe in. Right. And and that can be reflected through your CSR campaign. Right. And that’s all well and good, right. But that doesn’t mean you’re purpose driven, certainly doesn’t mean you’re designing your entire brand and around, right. There’s another level up where you become that purpose that I just referenced, right is actually what drives you. Right? So you are, it’s not just a CSR campaign, it’s kind of the essence of who you are, and shapes what you do. So that’s purpose driven company, right. And you can also you can do that without necessarily defining your master brand positioning around it, right. So just because you’re purpose driven, right, which is kind of more of an internal thing, when you think about it doesn’t mean you have to manifest that through your brand, although in the case of Accenture, they do. And in the case of some other brands, right, their brand positioning is their corporate purpose. But the separation of the two, or at least the ability to separate them, I think are pretty apparent. And again, I think your positioning does need to be a little bit more fluid than let’s say a purpose, right? Because, you know, and that’s why brains very often reposition, you know, market conditions change or your competencies change your product service offering, or some combination of those, which really require you to rethink your brand positioning. So that’s essentially how she defined it. And I think like I said, it’s fairly consistent with, you know, what I’ve seen happening in the marketplace too.

Anne Candido 9:47
Yeah, I think this is a really interesting conversation. I’d love to hear other stories that you have from other CMOs are related to this too, because I think this is one that a lot of people struggle with in bursts. I think I want to be very clear about But the definitions of these two things are, because I think a lot of people might use them interchangeably in a way. But they’re not. They’re not really. So you know, the purpose, if you want to call it your mission, or the reason why you’re you exist, or what you’re here to do and who you’re here to serve, is the foundation of what a brand is based on. It’s what we call our brand story. And it’s who you are, why are you different? And why do people want you and that’s the foundation, from what you build from your positioning is how you orient that within your landscape in order to get people to actually engage with you to be aware of you and to drive relevance. And so I can see why you were saying, you know, like, the thread is generally the purpose, the positioning or how you show up, can flex based on who you’re talking to, what environment you’re talking to them and what’s going on around you. And it’s really, really important to be very aware and very nimble and very flexible when it comes to these sorts of things. Because that landscape is changing very, very rapidly. And so if you’re going to kind of write it down in stone, your purpose and your positioning, intertwine them so tightly, that there’s no flexibility there. This is where a lot of people are running into trouble, as well, on the flip side is that people arbitrarily define a purpose, say that that’s their their position, and then put that on the market and then wonder why this explodes in their face. So I don’t know, Mitch, if you have some more to say about that, or maybe another example or two that you can pull from that, just to kind of highlights this point for people?

Mitch Duckler 11:28
Well, actually, I think just even staying on the Accenture, I think that let’s put a little bit of teeth around it. So and this is all obviously public information. I’m not talking about a school, but she defined their purpose as to deliver on the promise of technology and human ingenuity, right to deliver on the promise of technology and human ingenuity. And she went and I go into the amount of detail in the book in terms of how they got there. And what each one of those words, right, it’s a 10 word statement, yet each one of those words has significant meaning. But then I asked her Okay, well, how does that relate to your brand strategy and your brand positioning, and she said that their brand positioning is really defined by a current campaign that they call let there be change. And she said that would that is the concept. She said, one thing that is true with could says consistent with the purpose and true with all the clients that they work with, are that everyone experiences change, and that everyone is either trying to affect change or cope better with it, right? And age, you know, is inherently a good thing. And you shouldn’t find it and therefore let there be change. And obviously, through the through the combination of technology and human ingenuity, right, that that’s a possibility through Accenture. So again, you can start to envision how maybe over time, in fact, I would assume over time, that campaign will shift, right, and they might, it might take a different twist or turn. And they would bring that purpose that 10 word purpose and technology and human ingenuity to life or express it in a different way, still still consistent with that purpose. But maybe, for example, less focused on on the concept of change. So that’s, I think, I don’t know if that helps. But that gives you an example of how you kind of have this enduring foundation really be well in purpose. But you can kind of ebb and flow or fluctuating with your brand in order to stay relevant.

April Martini 13:31
I think it’s a great contextualized example, because, you know, one of the things we’re always trying to do is peel back the curtain. And obviously, you said this is all public knowledge. So it’s not like we’re sharing anything that we shouldn’t. But I think as you’re talking, the thing that resonates with me is when brands overall are really intentional about all of this stuff we’re talking about here, right, and how they work together and what that looks like. And when we speak about campaigns, specifically, the ability to make sure that they stay on strategy, but they can flex with the messaging and the time. And you talked about change just being inherent in all of this, which is another thread that we talk about constantly. So I would love to hear other kind of the thread of change, like where else was some of those other themes that you brought up at the beginning? What are some other of those, like meaty examples, because I think that one really is easy to see how it works, both in concept and then through to execution. So we’d love to tackle some of the other pieces as well.

Mitch Duckler 14:35
Yeah, well, I think and again, I especially as you think about the concept of purpose, right and you know, purpose as a as a potential basis for for brand positioning. And we talked about in the book, there being and this is actually not my thinking total up front, right. This is from HBr Harvard Business Review, but you know, they talked about three Tension sources. But purpose, you know, one, which I find the most common would be a cause. Right? And I think most people actually associate those two or use those two terms interchangeably assume that a purpose is a cause, right? And the two most popular are probably ESG, or the right the environment or societal like DNI, right? And a lot of companies today are embracing one of the or elements of one of those two as their purpose. And then they carry that through to how they position their brand. But in that HBR article, just, I think parently, fairly reputable, fairly popular, they also talk about two other, they also start with C, besides cause there could be competence, which as the name suggests, that is based on what you do better than anyone else, right, your superpower. So, for example, in the case of IBM, you know, when you think about what their brand stands for is a smarter planet, right. And they are a company that is just thriving on on intelligence and artificial intelligence. So you start to get to see the connection there, right, a purpose based on the competence, right, Smarter Planet, it’s linked to AI and, and some of the great work that service based work that they do. The third C is culture, right, which is based on your corporate values and the way you conduct business. So it’s fairly similar to cause right in some ways, but it’s more internally focused, right? It’s not about something like an external like cause or a bank or entity. It’s about just the way you believe in doing business, right, and how you define your culture, how you inspire your people, how you recruit, things like that. So I think in the book, I talked about Mars, the company, Mars being a one that defines their purpose around their culture. To go ahead, I don’t recall exactly what the example was, but it was based, again very much on their value, their corporate values, and what they look for when they hire and the type of environment or culture they try to foster.

Anne Candido 17:05
I think that’s a really great descriptor of the three categories that I do think drives purpose. And I think there’s examples great examples of in all three of those. I mean, we were talking about cosmic Tom’s kind of invented that, so to speak, we talked about competencies, and IBM. AAA is another one, we’ve talked a lot about, from a culture standpoint, we have a great episode on that for people to go back and listen to. So I think that really sums up nicely the three ways that you can really embrace purpose, and then build positioning around it, as long as it’s intentional, as we as April mentioned, which I think is an extremely important point. And as long as something that is consistent and systemic, something that you’re going to go live on a regular basis, it’s not something you go in and out on. So I think that’s really, really well said, I wanted to move to another one of the points. And I think this is the foundation of a lot of consternation from a lot of marketing executives. And that’s what you called a personalization, and the use of all of these really like fancy technical tools now that people are using in order to build that level of customization for folks, we’re talking about AR, we’re talking about IR, we’re talking about AI all of the acronyms, if you will, that helped to build some level of ways that people can engage in brands and greige, and products that make them feel a little bit more emotionally engaged. So I’d love for you to talk a little bit about that. And what’s the role of that? And how are CMOS really embracing these technologies in order to really move their brands in a different direction?

Mitch Duckler 18:44
Thank you. Before I do, I just want to go back to the one final point that you kind of triggered for me on purpose just because it is so important. You talked about it, you know, the authenticity of it and being very consistent. And I think it’s really important to call that out of all the content out of all the topics I’ve talked about my book, I would say purpose is the one that’s not really new, right purpose been the notion of purpose, being purpose driven, and even purpose branding has been around for a decade and a half or more I do believe right. And I think that’s all the more reason why what you said is so important around just being able to deliver on a consistently or I think maybe intentional is the word you use, and it has to be very authentic, because I think the the antenna is up for purpose watching, right? Yeah, absolutely. I’m really, really walking the walk or just talking to talk. Right. And I just I felt compelled just to throw that in there because I think it is an important point you brought up I didn’t want to gloss over.

Anne Candido 19:45
No, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it’s table stakes. Now some elements of this. It’s not really a positioning that differentiated. I mean, everybody expects you to be good for the environment, socially aware and accepting and inclusive. So people All who are basing their brands on these things that are now considered table stakes, not because they’re not important just because everybody expects that from them now is definitely something you need to start thinking about how to elevate. So thank you for that. I think that’s a really important point. I’m glad you brought that up. Go back to the personalization. And we’ll move on to that.

Mitch Duckler 20:19
Let’s talk about two topic, two concepts presented during a related idea. So the first is personalization. And then I think that there are, it has some implications for experience. And that’s where maybe some of the other technologies like AR and VR come in, right. And so let’s start with personalization. And there were really two common sub themes that came out from the interviews under the umbrella of personalization, and basic and more specifically, AI and its ability to enable personalization, and they are micro segmentation, and hyper personalization. So let’s talk about micro segmentation is the ability, which is genuine, which is really afforded by AI to segment markets based on an infinitely more granular basis, right. So, if you think about segmentation, a traditional segmentation schema may have five or six, attitudinal or behavioral segments, right? It can be b2b b2c, well think about AI can produce literally hundreds or even 1000s of mini segments, it almost has a built almost approach, you know, the peppers and Rogers vision a one to one marketing than they had back in the early 90s. And it’s really AI’s incredible computing power that allows that right it can, it can take a number of different variables, look at different possibilities or outcomes, those variables, combine them and then segment at a very, very granular basis, you know, based on that, and that just is impossible without, without the computing power, really, and the capabilities of AI. So then once you have that segment, those segments really, really granular segments are almost think of it in theory, at least as one to one, then there’s the concept of hyper personalization, right, so how you actually craft everything right from the product, offering or configuration, the communication and messaging around your brand, or the actual experience you deliver to that mini segment, if you will, that the could be one or a few, in a way that’s hyper relevant. Again, I think segmentation certainly goes a long way, because it doesn’t treat everybody the same. It’s not one size fits all, it’s saying, we’re going to kind of crack the experience based on you know, for white hill and or target based on UB, one to five or six segments, we’ll imagine doing it on a one to one basis, how much more powerful that even is. And that is at least some of the more sophisticated CMOS that I spoke with, that are really applying AI to the max today. And that’s the way they’re describing it, right? It’s almost like segmentation is a thing of the past, right? It’s, it’s, it’s too, it’s too simplistic, it’s too archaic. And right now you almost have to think about one to one and you can to a certain extent with with AI. And then taking that one step further with the experience, right, and that’s where they start combining AI with things like AR like augmented reality and virtual reality, especially AR and then delivering like in, especially in retail environments, experiences that are very, very immersive and tailored to the individual in question, right? This all, of course, requires at least some degree of zero or first party data. But if you do have that, and you combine that with AI, it’s really an awful combination.

April Martini 23:57
Well, and this kind of stuff is super fascinating. Just the, you know, I mean, I can I was you know, back at the table, creating segmentation decks as you were talking and what that looks like, and, you know, the six profiles or buckets or whatever, what we were trying to do versus what you’re talking about here, which is really getting down into the weeds of things. But one of the things that struck me as you were talking, is, you know, we have the conversation often about these types of things being tools versus expecting them to solve everything. And so I would be interested in what is the perspective there around how do you make sure that the experience of your brand doesn’t become fragmented, and you’re still holding to that high level strategy, while creating these experiences one off for people so that it holds together still, right, because I agree with you. I mean, I think segmentation feels over simplified when you think about what we have at our disposal, but then there can be too much of a good thing, right? So

Mitch Duckler 25:01
I think the key to that is when we talk about tailoring anything, whether it’s the offer, or you experience that we’re doing so in a way that is still true to the brand position, right? So we don’t, what I’m not suggesting is that you go off and activate or execute or deliver your brand in ways that are entirely separate from from your positioning, right, you need to do it in a way that is consistent your positioning, but even that, there’s still a lot of degrees of variability that can be you can customize different components of let’s say, an offer, you can tweak your messaging, you can give an experience that might be a little bit more relevant for one individual versus another without necessarily betraying your brand positioning. Because I think that is still true today, right? We don’t, this is not saying that branding is dead, right? at all, or even that is changing, right? I think some of the core tenets of a brand strategy still remain, right or even discipline of brand management are still critical, right? It’s still gonna still paramount to be customer centric, and is still critical, but have a single minded differentiated brand positioning, and you need to deliver on that. But that doesn’t mean can’t do that in ways that are nuanced, and highly more relevant to certain people based on again, who they are, and, or maybe even just their context, right, a lot of it is just hey, are you catching that? Where are you catching them? location wise, and time of day? or what have you, and you might tweak it that way? That’s not fundamentally changing your brand or shouldn’t right? If it does that, I think you’re right, it could actually be more disruptive, disruptive than helpful.

Anne Candido 26:55
Well, it’s kind of takes me to the movie Minority Report, where we remember when we first saw that with a movie with Tom Cruise, that it felt like that was such a distant future world where you’re walking by a billboard, and the billboard calls you by name, or they’re able to customize a message according to you, and it’s a little freak out ish, to some extent that people can or even a system get to know you so well that they can, they can do that. But it is the next level of personalization of being able to feel like that brand knows you or they get you and that’s the basis as you said a brand strategy and being able to elicit that emotional connection based on a relationship that the brand that you feel like the brand knows you they get you they’re delivering nice things for you now want to figure out or probably have to, like creep into how, how slowly you have to, to gain that familiarity. So you don’t put people like totally off. But it is a really important, interesting phenomenon, being able to target in a way that feels hyper relevant, and then be able to use technology to respond in a way that delivers on that. And I think that’s been like the intersection that we’ve been trying to do for a very long time. But no matter what marketing channel we’ve been using, whether it’s traditional advertising now and we’re moving into social moving into digital, that’s always the objective. So now just becoming a little bit more and more intimate. But it is something that’s very, very strange, because it kind of blows up the philosophy of what you’re trying to deliver from a brand standpoint, because brands generally meant to please the masses, everything that you designed for is generally meant to please the masses is why we had segmentation we only had five because we’re trying to get to 80% household penetration, or we’re trying to get that that that traction or that trial by appealing to a more general audience versus going hyper relevant. So my question is, is this changing the philosophy or the strategy that a lot of businesses are now approaching the way that they introduce products, the way they introduce services, the way that they’re actually determining how to build those KPIs?

Mitch Duckler 29:08
Yeah, I think it is gradually. But it’s interesting, because I think there’s that there’s two different issues that came up at least two fairly consistently with CMOs and spoke with when it came to AI. And some of what you were just talking about, right, this notion of hyper personalization. And they’re both catch 20 twos. The first catch 22 is consumers say they want personalization, they want customization. They don’t want to be treated like like a number, right? They want to know that the brand, understand them and is meant for them. Right. In order to do that. What does it require requires you as a brand to understand that right and normally do that he need data, right? You need information. Well guess what? 70% of consumers say they’re very leery to give marketers information. So it’s That’s what I do, right? They, you want them to know you, but you don’t want to give them your information. And that’s one of the things that they’re they’re saying they’re running up against. And then the other one, which I think is kind of where you are going with your question is, yeah, there’s this, this creep factor, right? Oh, my God, they know that they’re following me it’s big brother as well, but you saying you want to tailor it? Right? You want it to be hyper relevant, and like, Oh, my God, they’re reading my mind. They are Oh, my God reading mine. So I think that there is that we’re in kind of in this period of evolution or transition, maybe, you know, where it’s, I think, we’re not sure where it’s going to come out. Or maybe it just, you know, the technology is, is, is gaining adoption so fast, right, it’s AI in particular, that, you know, we’re still kind of figuring it out, like, maybe this is something people will get used to, right, and it will no longer be creepy. Or maybe it won’t, and marketers are gonna have to figure out a way to be more subtle, or? I don’t know, I think the scripts can still be written on that one.

Anne Candido 31:06
Yes, that’s that was a really great perspective to offer for that question. But it’s also like trying to get to to is like, is it changing the strategy by which the CMOS are doing their marketing? Are they going after more of those hyper segmentation versus more mass messaging? Or is it kind of like a mix? Or is it like, how are they starting to think about where or how to do their marketing campaigns?

Mitch Duckler 31:32
Well, it depends on a couple of days. And then first, it depends on the CMO of the company, the brand and their specific business, right, I think the business you’re in certainly has implications for the level to which you need to and can do that, right, that level of personalization. The other thing is, as you might expect, it differs by channel, you know, even within the same business. So obviously, the more mass oriented media media, like broadcast, you know, TV advertising, I mean, that, that is not really being, you know, meaningfully changed by AI necessarily. But when you start thinking about promotional ads, or messages being pushed out by that exact same brand, to a mobile phone, that is, you know, they are thinking about hyper personalization, they’re right, and they’re thinking a lot about, especially in like retail brands. This came up a lot in food service, right? Fast food are some of the best examples of this, you know, how they will even to the same consumer deliver, even to the same consumer, right, deliver a different message or a different promotion or offer, based on the time of day, or the location ready to get all this requires other technology, like zero or first party data, G GPS or geofencing. Right. But hey, based on where they are, and the time of day, and what they did last Tuesday, when they were here, this is the offer I’m gonna write. So yeah, I think it is changing. But it’s not a one size fit. It’s not a blanket change, I think it’s, there’s still an element of mass communication that isn’t being tailored. But there are others based on channel or context that are

April Martini 33:22
well, I think you sort of naturally I feel like I’m putting on the ad hat, jumped into the the next portion here, which is all around promotion. And we talk all the time about the right message at the right time with the right storyteller to people. And we talk also about how it’s always more of an art than a science, right? And so you sort of started to go there. So I’m just going to let you keep on going but talk about how are CMOS navigating the choices? Because even in the example that you just gave us? I mean, think about this one person, right? But like there’s so many opportunities of where I am, what I did last week, what time of day it is, I mean, it’s a lot. So how are CMOS making those choices? And then what’s working and what’s not working? Related to that

Mitch Duckler 34:08
would be I think maybe I was making one question, Eddie, my response because, in fact, I would argue that promotions are arguably becoming more science than art. We’d stand the example that I just gave, right. So instead of one size fits all, or instead of guessing, instead of, you know, again, when throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks, they’re choosing promotions, whether it’s a specific offer or the messaging around it, or both. They’re tailoring that to be to be more relevant, and with a higher likelihood to converge right, based on all this different information that again, it’s not all AI but AI is certainly making it possible, right? And again, how Understanding it’s a lot of things coming together, right? So part of it is, is other technology like let’s say, GPS, they want to know what location you’re in. So they’re the you’re being you’re being followed, if you will, on a mobile phone. There’s also first party data, so they know your behavior and what you tend to respond to or not. And that’s coming together, then there’s a Yeah, what type of campaigns are offers? Do you typically respond to or typically reject, and then it’s artificial intelligence that allows you to look at the myriad of potential opportunities or tactics that you can employ and choose the best one based on all of that. And all of a sudden, so again, I think it’s, it’s not that hard, it’s going away, but it’s becoming much more scientific, right? Because it’s based much more on data. It’s based much more on predictive analytics, right? What is going to convert for this consumer in this location? At this time? I mean, is it 100%? No, but it’s probably much better than guesswork, right? It’s certainly more reliable than a man.

Anne Candido 36:09
Yeah, and I think if you’re a small, medium sized business, this should sound like music to your ears, although some of them are gonna probably be you feel totally overwhelmed by everything that we’re saying. But I think if I was going to just kind of drill it down to what is the key factors that are driving success. Regardless, if you’re how you’re getting that data, it’s really understanding the consumer in a hyper relevant way about who’s your opportunistic consumer, in a very, very intimate way, not in a segmentation model way, but a very intimate way. And again, getting over the mindset that I have to appeal to everybody, right. And so it’s really understanding they are highly opportunistic consumer that did data behind their purchase decisions, especially related to your industry or category, starting to activate that through promotion, so you can learn what is working for them, right. And so this is a way to win now, where before the world was like the people who had the most money, and the biggest voice, got all the attention. Now what’s very strategic in not even that like, even though everybody AI feels everybody feels sophisticated. It’s really just a tool as April said, in order to get the data. So using whatever tools at your disposal, you have the opportunity now to break through in a way that you couldn’t break through before. And so I think it’s a really powerful thing for small and medium sized businesses to really embrace, don’t you think?

Mitch Duckler 37:32
Yes, absolutely. And there are a lot of there are a lot of analogues back to you know, the late 1990s, early 2000s. And that time, they talked about how the Internet and World Wide Web is democratizing is kind of democratizing marketing branding, because all of a sudden, we’re able to bring in, you know, need, you know, 100 million dollar more plus advertising budget, right, you can reach consumers in a very, very cost effective way. At scale, right? Because the internet was allowing, and I think it’s similar here, where these tools, these AI tools are not, you know, and depending on what you know, I don’t mean overgeneralize. But a lot of the AI technology capabilities are available, really in very cost, affordable pricing, right, the small and to your point, small and medium sized businesses can do this, it’s not something that only the largest corporations can do. So I do think that it is opening up a world of opportunity for small and medium sized business to, to get in use this technology and really leverage and get the most out of what are arguably, maybe smaller budgets.

April Martini 38:52
So the title of the book is the future ready brand? What’s next? Because I love the conversation around like, you know, this is for everyone, and everyone can take advantage. And I totally agree. And I’m on board with that piece. But you know, what insights? Did you get kind of where things might go? Or you know, who’s really leading the charge? And what are they leading in? Like? What are the things that got you most excited maybe when in these interviews?

Mitch Duckler 39:18
What got me most excited was because if you think about the CMOS that I interviewed, they were really all over the board in terms of the types of businesses they represented. A lot of them were b2b. And one of the things that I was hearing is, you know, in the world of b2b marketing very often, not always, but very often is kind of the redheaded stepchild. And me, you know, coming from a CPG background way back when and you’re spending a lot of time in b2c that that concept to me is foreign, right? It’s just we didn’t even you’re not a marketing driven company. Look at the leadership right I could see the C suite, or you came up through the marketing function, I sent the case and b2b, a lot of these markers talked about the ability of these technologies, and probably most specifically AI, but really all to elevate their stature to elevate their profile and the level of influence that they have in the C suite and across the organization, because all of a sudden, if they’re using this, right, because all of a sudden, they you know, they can go beyond just analytics and start getting into prediction, right? Predictive, right, and they still they own the consumer, the customer, right, they own the brand. And they can, if they can use this technology appropriately, they can understand how to essentially maximize share of whatever the metric may be revenue share of wallet, they can begin to start to own that growth agenda, like never before. And I think that’s really encouraging right there. Now, all of a sudden, they’re not just a support staff with the shortest tenure in the C suite. They’re not just doing trade shows or what have you. They are actually in for informing strategy, by the insight by the more sophisticated insights and predictive insights that they’re able to bring, which I think is kind of exciting. Can you have something that should give every marketer hope, right, that we all want to see the marketing function advanced. So that’s really, I think it’s really encouraging news.

Anne Candido 41:36
And I think the other thing that we talked about too, when we were discussing, the the episode was the rise of health and wellness brands to which seems to be a category that is getting a ton of attention in continues to grow, both, from a product standpoint, a service standpoint and a tech standpoint. So is that one two that you’re starting to see kind of proliferate across the board? Yes.

Mitch Duckler 42:01
A couple of ways. There were two, three, I’d say two themes that really emerged from a lot of my health and wellness related conversations. Again, I didn’t talk to every cmo on every subject, right. But those that I did speak to about health and wellness, not all of them were in, that was a free, not all of them were in the quote unquote, health and wellness space. Right. What they’re realizing, though, is that given an evolved definition, I would argue post COVID evolved definition of wellness, right, and even just the notion that difference between health and wellness, that there are implications for companies, right? And for brands that aren’t necessarily health brands are you know, they’re not Pharma. They’re not healthcare, per se, but it is this what role can they play at fostering better wellness and well being? And when you think about it that way, that wellness is really this. It’s the totality here that the sum total of physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, right, if you start to define wellness, that way, you begin to see that basically any category here in Canada at least tangentially impact that right, so they’re starting to think about what can we do to improve the lives or the well being of our consumers? Even if we’re in a seemingly non healthcare related business?

April Martini 43:26
What I feel like this has brought us full circle right back to the beginning of the conversation, because where I went in my head was, if it’s tied to their purpose,

Anne Candido 43:35
as they say, it becoming the new definition of purpose, right?

April Martini 43:39
Yes. And so you know, I love all the macro trend data, too, right. And I think the brands that are smart and the CMOS that are smart, they capitalize on them, but also in more of that tool based way, right? So they think about it not in terms of, oh, we have to be there, because it is a big trend. And if we are not we’re in trouble. I think about it more in terms of that’s interesting. That’s data that we can pull forward. And then what is that interpretation going to look like for us? Just and also, where will we not play? Because it will be ineffective and inauthentic? If we do?

Mitch Duckler 44:15
Yes, I completely agree. And they’re probably for that reason. I mean, there were some CMOS who just didn’t get the connection between their business and brands and the health and wellness in this case, right. And, or it just isn’t, you know, it’s it doesn’t fight, but it’s not necessarily consistent with their purpose of their positioning, right. So to your point, you can’t, you can’t force it that you certainly don’t want to act on it or activate it. If it’s not consistent with your strategy, whether that’s your purpose, your business strategy, or your brand positioning, but when it is, you know, hey, and whether it is something that you’re starting to think about very different.

Anne Candido 44:56
I totally agree. And I think though, the lesson can be in It’s gonna be in a full spectrum of health and wellness. Because if you think about Brandon, his purest foundation and function like we were just talking about, it’s about eliciting that emotional connection, which is based on the other person’s well being, you’re solving some sort of tension, some sort of issue that that person is facing, whether it’s a b2c standpoint, a b2b standpoint, it doesn’t matter. So being able to dial in to what that is just helps brands be able to have a foundation that is aligned with that macro trend, but maybe not playing like right in it on the nose. So I encourage people to really think about it in a in a spectrum, and how these things can be applied.

Mitch Duckler 45:42
Well, one example along those lines, if you’d like an example is I interviewed the Chief Marketing Officer of our library detests beer. Right. So yeah, fine. Again,

Anne Candido 45:53
that definitely makes you feel better.

Mitch Duckler 45:57
Yeah, so when that when we agreed to speak, you know, I’m saying, you know, I was talking about the different topics and chapters in the book. And I asked her, like, in the very first one out of our mouths, I want to talk about health and wellness. And that was when I was expecting a beer CMO, right. And yet in it, right, because they’re taught, they’re thinking about waves, right? That different additives, right, and herbs and so forth. You know, like melatonin, let’s say, you know, or can have that they’re beginning to beer that can actually improve your health as opposed to not denigrate it. And that’s a great example of what I mean, if they immediately go there right now our brand, and they’re thinking about health and wellness. And you’d be pretty hard pressed to say your, your brand category has nothing to do with health and wellness, right? If they can make the connection there. And it just shows you I think it is about your mindset and your frame of reference, that’s critical. Well,

April Martini 46:56
I think it’s an amazing example, because, you know, we talked about beverages and just the beverage category and total and how massive it is, right? But when you think about the alcohol category, not just the health portion, but just in total, that they’re really competing at a much broader level, right, like the mocktail trend in not actually drinking alcohol. And so to your point, what else are we adding it and there’s also CBD being added into some of these beverages. And so I think the definition is really changing. And it’s super smart to not, you know, say, Oh, well, we are in this space. So we’re not even going to consider for her to lean right in and tackle that topic. Right off the bat says that there’s the open mindedness of,

okay, let’s

not shut it down right away. But let’s think how this can or should or not apply to us and what that looks like.

Mitch Duckler 47:48
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it goes one step further. It’s not even, you know, I think the first inclination is, hey, we’re not as bad as you think, or, you know, don’t, this is something that’s far more powerful. There’s, they’re not only they’re going beyond that, saying, hey, there are health benefits to drinking, or alcoholic beverages, right. And it can improve your sleep, it can improve your energy, it can improve your digestion was there, she gave me a number of great examples of things that are in your new product pipeline. through certain attitudes, they have physical or psychological or emotional benefits that have nothing to do with getting intoxicated.

Anne Candido 48:32
What do I always say about tequila? April,

April Martini 48:34
it’s medicinal. I think I’m gonna have to go have a shot after this conversation.

Anne Candido 48:37
He had to kill those medicinal. So what I tell everybody? Well, this has been a fantastic conversation, I feel like we we’ve been through it all. And I love the strategy conversation, because I feel it’s it’s one that people tend to gloss over. So I really love how deep we were able to go here and in the perspective variable brain from the CMOS that you interviewed, and in your own personal perspective, from all the work that you guys do as well at full search. So I’m going to ask them rapid fire questions, which I know you’re not prepared for. But this is just so the audience gets to know you a little bit. And then I’m going to ask you to going to close this out and tell everybody where to find you. So you’re ready for rapid fire. Yeah. All right. Okay. So besides your own book, what are the books that you’re reading right now or podcasts you’re listening to?

Mitch Duckler 49:27
Well, I’m listening to your podcast. So cool. Oh, yay.

Anne Candido 49:30
Thank you.

Mitch Duckler 49:33
So a book, actually, I think give your book I’m rereading, and it’s given the good it actually does relate to my book. It’s called the AI marketing canvas. And it’s a book that obviously has a lot of implications for a couple of chapters. In my book, I interviewed the author, actually the authors and maybe for their book, but it really is it’s very closely tied to a lot of the topics we talked about what I love How’d it unlike my book, is it’s very prescriptive and how to in terms of like, how do you actually build a nice AI strategy for marketing and competitive? And, you know, how do you build this roadmap to success? So it’s been out a few years, but um, I do want to give a plug to its authors and to the book itself. It’s fantastic.

Anne Candido 50:21
So get your book to get the strategy of it all and then get that book to execute. Exactly one two punch. All right, next question. One thing you want to accomplish this summer,

Mitch Duckler 50:32
I want to learn how to water ski.

April Martini 50:36
Cool, awesome.

Mitch Duckler 50:38
I used to be on that. I don’t want to I haven’t done it since I was a kid. And I think it’d be really, I would just I don’t know what made me think of it. But I must have seen it on TV thinking can be really fun. And I need to learn how to do that again. I’m sure I’m starting from ground zero. I don’t think it’s like riding a bike.

April Martini 50:55
It’s so funny. You say that because I just had this conversation two nights ago with someone where we were talking about Ken isn’t one of the things that you can do like riding a bike. That was the exact conversation. And he seemed to think I would be fine. And I don’t necessarily trust that I see. Yeah, no, you’re not going. I was like 14 When I got an otter. So she’s

Anne Candido 51:13
sitting here in a boo and you’re in with a sinus sinus infection. She thinks she’s gonna go waterski I’m gonna take you up. Yeah, try to tequila and

April Martini 51:22
then go water ski. That’d be

Anne Candido 51:27
alright, so the last question is your favorite band music band or music genre.

Mitch Duckler 51:32
I’ll go genre. I mean, I kind of it’s giving away my age, I’m sure. But you know, I am a classic rock guy. Still, even the new genres and I don’t only listen to and I’m not stuck in the 70s, I still have like a soft spot for it. And there are just so many great bands, I think that came on era.

Anne Candido 51:53
Big here. 80s girl right here. So I’m with you. Awesome, if thank you for letting everybody get to know you a little bit more through this whole entire conversation. And so when the end, like I said, I was going to put a bow around this anything else that you wanted to mention that we didn’t get a chance to talk about, and also tell everybody where they can find you. And your book. So in

Mitch Duckler 52:15
terms of the bow, I mean, what we talked about one of the key themes, again, which is just the potential that is in front of marketers today to really elevate their role if it isn’t already right and increase their sphere of influence in the organization. The other theme I want, I would be remiss if I didn’t say came out of this is the importance of jumping in and getting started all of these CMOS, it’s kind of interesting, because they’re the ones that are doing more than anybody, but they all felt like oh my god, I’m not doing enough. I had some telling me that they didn’t even feel comfortable talking about this topic. And then when I asked them what because they’re not doing much. And when I asked them what they are doing, like oh my god, you’re doing a ton. Let’s talk about that. And they didn’t even realize it. Until we started talking. And they were like, You know what, you can’t just sit by the sidelines and wait and see where this all shakes out. You can’t just say, oh, where’s AI going to end up or? Well, I’m going to wait for all of the obstacles and the pitfalls to be worked through before I get in there. They’re testing and learning if it’s on a small scale. They’re doing something with all of these technologies because they feel like they have a window in the next year or two. If they don’t they will be behind the curve right now. They’re not right. They’re there with everybody else are probably even ahead. But you can’t just sit on the sidelines and wait, you know what, what Metaverse platform is going to be the winner right? You know, no, don’t, don’t invest foolishly and spend resources carelessly. But, you know, you have to learn and experiment and learn, you know, on a measured basis. So I that’s just one thing, I would probably leave your listeners.

Anne Candido 53:52
I love that. And where can people find you? Where can they get the book? They

Mitch Duckler 53:56
find me in a couple places. As I mentioned my firm is full surge. We are a brand consultancy at FullSurge.com. And on there you can also find information about the book. And the book is also available pretty much anywhere online. Certainly. I mean, obviously Amazon Barnes and Noble. A lot of other online retailers are offering it but certainly check it on Amazon.

Anne Candido 54:26
Mitch, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate all the insights you’re able to bring today. And with that, we’ll say go and exercise your marketing smarts.

April Martini 54:36
Still need help in growing your marketing smarts? contact us through our website. ForthRight-People.com We can help you become a savvier marketer through coaching or training you and your team or doing the work on your behalf. Please also help us grow the podcast by reading and reviewing on your player of choice and sharing with at least one person. Now go show off your Marketing Smarts!