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4 Ways to Gain Traction for Your POV: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Jan 03, 2023

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

This is Episode #146 and we’re talking gaining traction for your POV. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Marketing Smarts Episode #146: 4 Ways to Gain Traction for Your POV

No matter what role you’re in, you often need to have a point-of-view (POV). And you always need the support of your team and your clients if you want that POV to move your business along. Gaining traction for your POV comes down to using simple and consistent language, repetition on repetition on repetition, not “trying to sell the barn with the chickens,” and prioritizing the “why” and the impact. There are some pitfalls with POVs as well – each of which we’ve experienced ourselves. What can you do if you’re just getting stuck in the same conversations and not hammering your point home? Why can it take so long to get people on board? We have the answers, and more analogies than a poet. This episode covers everything from metaphors to the pitfalls with POVs. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How do you become a compelling speaker?
  • What can you do if you keep getting stuck?
  • How do you fast-track your speaking progress?
  • What are the biggest mistakes people make in trying to gain traction for their POV?
  • Why should you use simple and concise language?
  • How does repetition leave an impression?
  • Why are metaphors effective?
  • How do you prioritize the “why?”

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at: ForthRight-People.com.

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:02
This is Marketing Smarts – a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader, no matter your level. In each episode, we will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We will also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. And if you missed anything, don’t worry, we put worksheets on our website that summarize the key points. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to Marketing Smarts. I am Anne Candido and I am April Martini. And today we’re gonna talk about how to gain traction for your point of view, or POV. For short, now, I spend a lot of time and trying to convince others that our position or perspective or the strategy that we have, or even a product or service is the right one for them. Now, some of this falls under the explicit selling of products and services. So all of you in sales are like yes, this is what I do. But some of it is more implicit through exchanges with colleagues and bosses and executive teams and project teams and board of directors and venture capitalists. You target in the intent may differ. But the objective is the same, which is we’re trying to get people to follow, believe or agree with what we’re saying.

April Martini 1:16
And there are many pitfalls we have seen when people try to do this. Some are more really overt bad behavior, like bullying or threatening and those are, you know, very obvious ones, but some are not as obvious as that. So they can be things like failure to listen, not knowing your audience being inflexible, asking for too much too soon. So you sound tone deaf, not considering the other person’s point of view or currency of what’s in it for them rushing through your perspective to get to the end or trying to trick the other party. And we have a way to describe these people we say they’re like a dog with a bone. And in this case, that is definitely not a good thing.

Anne Candido 1:55
Harris right. And I may or may not have been mean some of these in several points in my career. Yes. Yes. So which is why we think this topic is so important and don’t think we haven’t fallen to those pitfalls ourselves. Alright, so with that, we’ll get into how to gain traction for your POV. First, use simple and consistent language April, I’m gonna let you start.

April Martini 2:19
Yeah, absolutely. So if you’re trying to gain traction, on your point of view, this means you’re meeting with expecting to meet with some level of opposition, right? Because inherently, it means that you’re putting yourself out there. And there’s a contrarian point that could come back. And this can be for a lot of reasons it can be because people disagree with you, or they don’t understand you, or you’re bringing up something that’s making them uncomfortable, or literally, they just don’t understand what you’re talking about. Yeah, so the last thing you want to do in this situation, and the point of this point is to exacerbate it by using a bunch of industry jargon, or big words that then pile on and create more confusion and trepidation. What we would say is do the opposite of that, treat them with respect, treat them as though they have a brain in their head, do not condescend, and you know, use those industry terms if they make sense in the conversation. But what we’re saying is don’t just use those big words for the sake of doing so. Also, don’t use acronyms that aren’t common knowledge. My friends at P&G love to know what you’re talking about. If the point of view is complicated, and you think people aren’t going to understand you then use an analogy that’s relatable and is an expert at this. And this is true, even if the people you’re trying to influence are in your industry, a big point that we make on the podcast. And the reason we have this podcast is we’re trying to break down marketing and branding concepts that can be interpreted many different ways with no clear right or wrong and doing this, we’re trying to get you to see our point of view on how these concepts should be approached. But even with that said, there are some that are super complex. And I remember when Anna and I were writing the one on brand architecture even and then trying to figure out how to distill it down in a way that would be understandable to folks and relatable and that they could digest and we actually ended up taking a few different runs. So we had more of like a one on one approach. And then we had you know, we call it out at the beginning I think we said this is a one or two or even 123 So if you haven’t listened to some prior episodes, please go back and do that because we’re trying to break it apart and make it digestible and understandable for our audience. And I would say you know and and I said we’ve been in a lot of the pitfalls are exhibited a lot of the knock great behaviors and trying to get our point of view. I’ve fallen into the trap to here and I still do with industry speak and even you know, I made my jab at my friends at Procter just a few minutes ago, even though I hate not using the relatable language, I still do it and so what I’ve started doing and what we do it for three people is one we try to scrub it from the presentations and we hope want each other accountable to that? And sometimes even have other people look at it that aren’t, don’t do what Dan and I do on a regular basis to say does this make sense. But then we’re also super cognizant when we’re speaking with our clients in, you can almost see a moment where they kind of gloss over, or you said something that they don’t get. And so I will pause immediately and say, I’m sorry, I think that I’m using language that is inherent to my day to day, but not yours. And that’s on me, not on you. So let me take a step back and clarify and kind of take another run at it. So that then we are all on the same page moving forward. So just kind of an anecdote to prove the point.

Anne Candido 5:37
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, like looking for those cues, and not just kind of busting through the cues, so that you like further lose them, I think is a really great self awareness tip. And that’s making sure that your person is responding, they’re tracking, and they’re following what you want them to follow. Because if they can’t, then obviously, lose any ability to gain traction with your POV. And if you want a really, really fantastic example of what this looks like, I think the movie The Big Short, is one of the greatest ways of really demonstrating how do you take a complex thing like this was all about how the basically the whole economy around the real estate collapse in 2008. And it’s a very complicated thing to understand. But the way that they do it in the movie, by breaking it down into these little vignettes helps you to follow along on the movie, so you can be entertained and educated, right. So I think that’s like a really fantastic example, I would watch that if you’re looking to really internalize and understand this, but I’ll just give it like a personal example, too, is, you know, I grew up in PR at P&G When I was in my branding and marketing days. And I found there was a lot of confusion about what even that meant. So one time we were talking about it being a PR plan and another 10, we’re talking about being a communications plan, and we’d even title them differently and give it to somebody in this group. And so communications plan as some person would get a PR plan. And they might compare milega. These look like the same thing. Yeah, what do I have here. And so even when we get comfortable, and we use things synonymously. And in our head, we know the difference, some people cannot pull out those nuances in a way that is meaningful for them. And by the way, it didn’t help that we kept changing the name of the group to mean in the 10 years I was there, we were like PR external relations, communications, whatever. So now I’ve like simplified the language to say, Okay, we’re gonna give you a communications plan, and PR might be a part of it. So think about where you might be adding in that complexity, because you keep changing the jargon around. And in your mind, it seems very clear. But if somebody else is not as familiar with it as you are, are they able to comprehend it like you? So take a little check on that? Yeah,

April Martini 7:45
it’s like they get stuck on the word. Whereas you can use things interchangeably. And it doesn’t matter to you because in your head, you’re clear, it’s like, if you take the time to be clear and consistent, then all of a sudden, you throw in another word for people that aren’t as aware. They’re like, wait a minute now. Like, and you know, and then the second guessing and unraveling just begins.

Anne Candido 8:02
Yeah. Oh, yeah, it happens very, very quickly. So the whole goal here is that try not to make your people confused, you’re talking to right your audience. Alright, so the second point on how to gain traction for your POB is, repetition is key. If I’m gonna give this one to

April Martini 8:18
you to your episode, and I’m having all the hard work,

Anne Candido 8:21
I’ll do it once at the end. All right. So

April Martini 8:24
once you’ve adopted the use of that clear and simple language to the point of the previous point, it’s that important to formulate key messages that you’ll use to then deliver your point of view. So the tool we use to the point of consistent language for this is a message track, or not to be confusing. If you do have multiple audiences, then you have a messaging architecture. And what that means is you take that messaging track, and then you nuance or change it based on each audience, which then builds to that bigger, broader architecture, you got it. So this helps you craft the messages that will be very, very key to delivering your point of view so that you can have that intentionality with your language, especially again, when considering the savviness of different audiences. And this also helps with crafting an elevator pitch. And hopefully everyone is familiar with generally what that means. But I’m not going to go too much into that because we actually have a whole episode on the elevator pitch. So if you need assistance in using your messaging tract to create that, go and seek that tool out.

Anne Candido 9:24
That’s a good one, too. That’s what Shane Meeker it was, yes, it

April Martini 9:26
was very good one so fun one. The entire point, though, of the messaging track is to use it everywhere. And one of the things that we see happen, we’ve talked already, I don’t know that we’ve said the word discipline directly, but that’s part of what we’re going to talk about here is sometimes we get bored with our own messages, and then we want to change it up. But the reality of the situation is that the people on the other end need to take some time to be educated to digest what you’re saying or simply have exposure to it on more than one occasion. so that they can internalize it. So this goes back to the point I was making before about when you live in this world, the vocabulary that surrounds you is just part of who you are. The people on the receiving end do not have the same comfortability familiarity, whatever with whatever you’re trying to say and put out there. So you really do need those five to seven times of using your message track really consistently, regardless of the touch point. Not that you can’t nuance based on what’s the best practice for that touch point. But the idea is that the message should be largely the same so that people can start to know what to expect from you. Now, the one thing I will say about this is, we’re not saying you don’t tweak it, as you learn, we talk about testing and learning on the show all of the time. And we talk about the fact that we’re in a very digital space, where you can literally change things on a regular basis, the message should still be largely consistent. But if you find that a word or a phrase doesn’t jive with people, or isn’t understood, or you’re not getting as much interaction with posts where you’re putting that out there, then you are well within your right to nuance it because you don’t want to put things out there that don’t make sense to people, right. But the consistency is really, really important. And one of the things that we talk about often is taking an example from the brand playbook. So I’m going to use language that’s inherent to us, but should be things that most of you understand, right? So if you are a consumer in the world, and you are experiencing touchpoints, everyday, hundreds of them typically, how many does it take for you to start to clue in or start down the path of buying something or learn to love a brand or learn to recognize them and what they stand for. Right? That doesn’t happen after the first time that you have exposure to them. I mean, I’ll use a personal example. So there’s a new store on the backside of Rookwood called Sierra here in Cincinnati. And I’d never heard of it before. And then word of mouth, someone told me about it, I saw it being put up, I had no relation to it whatsoever. Someone told me about it, then another neighbor told me about it. And then of course, because everything’s listening to us, I started getting served ads on it, right. And then I went into the store to experience it. So at that point, I had been exposed to the big sign on the building to people had talked to me about it, I’d been served ads. And then I felt like okay, I’m going in to experience it for the first time. And it took that retail experience to really solidify for me what they’re all about. And also understand that they’re part of like the T.J.Maxx HomeGoods umbrella, which then put everything into context for me and made sense, right? I’m in this world all the time. I’m being exposed to things all the time. And it still took me that many touch points to have any sort of relation or a desire to interact with that brand.

Anne Candido 12:56
Yeah, I think that’s a really, really good example because it reinforces exactly how people need to hear messages no matter what the message is. And the key here is that you want people to hear it in the same way. Yeah, because if you start nuancing, especially the key messages or themes, I’m going to talk about being flexible a second, if you don’t, if you start to alter the themes and in different ways, and then people lose that sense of that familiarity or their recognition that they’ve heard it before. So then you just start diluting your efforts. And so you want to make sure at nauseam that you’re repeating key themes. Now, that being said, as you said, April, it’s really important to be flexible. We talked about that in the beginning, where if somebody is not resonating with a way in or if they’re not relating to what you’re saying, then you may have to change up your way in which is how do you draw that, that connection with them so that they’re even interested in what you have to say? Absolutely. Right. So that complex and now you might want to play with an extra nuance by audience but the theme should always be the same. Yes, what impact you’re delivering the why the purpose, these key themes that you guys need to really solidify with regards to your your POV, those should always be the same. So really think about that, because that’s going to be the core of how to be able to get that traction. We do have a tool for the message tracking. So if you really want to have that you can go into our PR episode, I think just go to our website now that we have it reformat in a different way. Yay, yay. And you just search under Resources for public relations. It is the deep dive worksheet. So that’ll be the tool that we call a message truck that should help you get started. So the third point of how to gain traction for your POV is don’t try to sell the barn with the chicken since you love this one to the point of a good analogy. I know so this is what really I think helps to like solidify things and I think this is always a big tool to use in order for you to convey your POV when people are having trouble understanding complex situations when you could put it into an analogic form or a metaphor or something that they can understand. It allows them to draw those connections a lot quicker their neurons are firing when they can familiarize and put it in a setting that they’re familiar with. That’s always very, very helpful. So

April Martini 15:18
I guess that’s true. Is this an analogy or metaphor? Technically,

Anne Candido 15:21
metaphor is, is you use for an or, or like, or as like your assets, right? Yeah. It’s like an analogy. Yeah.

April Martini 15:30
Okay. I said analogy that I’m like, am I right? Anyway, we should ask your mom.

Anne Candido 15:35
Yeah. But I think I’m right on. Now that I actually had to think about it. But thank you for the question. Good question. Good point of clarification. Alright, so without further ado, what is me my selling the barn with the chickens. In other words, it means don’t pack too much in each messaging exchange, in an effort to get all out there. Remember, the very first thing you’re trying to do is you’re trying to sell chickens, right? So you’re trying to sell the initial thing that you came to the conversation for, it doesn’t help the other person receive your message when you’re like, alright, I finally have five minutes with this person, I’m just going to word vomit every single thing I can. And like really just let them know every single opportunity or possibility, every single side of perspective. So they get every understanding of this, and they have no possible questions whatsoever, no possible objections whatsoever. That does not work. All it does is overwhelm your person, and they’re left in this sea of like, I don’t even know what that just was, right? When again, when I said Your objective is to make this simple for them to understand, when you overload them, it gets very, very confusing. So all my years at p&g have taught me that the best way to gain traction on your pod is to feed the messaging with the intent to elicit a response. Right. So this creates a conversation which keeps your audience engaged. And by keeping your responses short, tight, simple and direct, your audience has a better chance of falling your train of thought. So the key here is to listen. So you might say it provide a point of one of your key message track points, right, and you’re saying, whatever that point of view point might be, it should elicit some sort of response of like, Oh, that’s interesting, or what does that mean? And then that gives you an opening in order to give them the next point or the clarification and that you can listen to see where their hang ups might be. So you can better direct your messaging in order to go right there. It shortens the process for them to have to think about it, identify whether that’s a good idea, bad idea, bad idea, or good opportunity for them or bad opportunity. So you can form that. That common sense of understanding that allows your messages to get traction more quickly. So then when you can get them to a point where they bought the chickens, then stop, let that settle, firm, let that settle, get whatever you need to get to, in order to take the next action point you need. It may not be everything that you’re hoping to get at that point. But as soon as you can get a point that’s in the direction you want to go stop for the moment, because what’s gonna happen is once you start selling them to chickens, they’re gonna be like, I have all these chickens. Where do I put them? I might need a barn do you guys sell barns or chicken coops and really going? Right? But I mean, it’s the right like analogy to think about oh, okay, so then it continues to have a fortuitous cycle where you can continue to that engagement and continue that discussion. So you’re able to actually get to the point where they bought the chickens and the barn?

April Martini 18:35
Yes. Yeah, I mean, I’m teasing. But I do think it’s a really good analogy. And one of the, you know, my reaction point when I saw this is well, one and is the queen of analogies, I wasn’t surprised. But the second thing was one of the ways that I felt like a lot of the agencies I worked at, we would shoot ourselves in the foot is when we would try to sell it all in one fell swoop. And we would be really inflexible about what that looked like. And the what would end up happening is I could see that, even if we sold it in we were already starting from a place where the client did not understand our point of view, they just had been either like beaten down, or told that we were the best of the best and therefore they had to follow our process blindly. I mean, there were tons of different things that happened and so I’m super cognizant of this. First of all, I love the sales portion of what we do. So I’m always very much in that and you know, everything from making sure relationships, whether they’re current clients or not, or ongoing meeting regularly, whatever but because I had that experience before and to the point of this point, I and we are very careful to meet our clients where we are with what’s appropriate for them in selling them that chicken or them the coop or whatever, not coming in and saying you’re doing it all wrong or you don’t have all these things. And if you don’t do all of it right now, then it’s not worth doing any of it. And I’ve been part of approaches like that before that you can already see the door shutting, whether it’s today, or six months from now, this is not going to go well. And that goes goes back to the listening and then to the point you’re making before about watching for those cues. Yeah, seeing the body language, see the facial expressions, when you throw a number out there just people cringe, people cringe when you throw a number out there, there’s no selling that you’re going to be able to do to get them over that you have to go back. And you have to figure out where the actual point of angst is, yeah, and address that directly. And you can only do that if you’ve been really, really centered in your message track. And you can bridge and we’re going to talk about bridging later. Yep. But if you want another example, this like I always like to give examples that people see in real life is watched several episodes of Shark Tank, I

Anne Candido 20:51
mean, I know I sound like a broken record. But a lot of times when people make a mistake in this area is because they’re like, oh, that person is really well educated, they should be able to understand especially be able to just download everything. And in to the point you were saying like they could be very smart. But if they’re not in your industry every day, they’re not going to understand the concepts in the jargon like you do. But just watch some of these episodes and how businesses pitch. These are very smart people that are receiving this pitch. And one of the biggest reasons why people don’t get an offer is because they don’t understand their business plan, get to understand what they’re trying to sell. They don’t understand there’s something confusing in the logic or something confusing in the way that they told the story. And they’re just like, I’m sorry, I just don’t get it. I’m out. If you can’t, they can’t rectify it in their head. And these are very smart people. And these businesses aren’t necessarily the most complex to understand. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it all comes down to the delivery, right. So it’s the the really key point of here is like, your ability to get traction is going to be in your delivery, nine times out of 10 more than actually what you’re trying to say Yes, right. Yes, no, I

April Martini 21:57
think that’s yeah, that’s absolutely completely fair. And also, if you’re having trouble with this, it gives you a little bit of reprieve and a pass to, you only have to sell the one thing at this point in time, you don’t have to give them every single thing, which I mean, I knew people who are masters at sales, and they can’t walk through 17 steps of what the entire offering is, at one time. Also, that doesn’t make an elevator speech. So just be cautious

Anne Candido 22:21
of that. Amen to that. Alright, so the fourth point of how to gain traction for your POV is to prioritize the why and the impact. So too often we get stuck and relaying every detail of the how and the what and we totally totally miss the why. Compelling Why is actually what rallies people around a common purpose and gets agreement because they have a vested interest in the outcome. And that’s really, really important. So getting people to appreciate the greater good that will come out of your POV is so critical for traction. Even better is if the audience needs or wants, whatever the impact that you’re going to generate. Now some of us can be philanthropic in nature and be able to say yes, I’m going to help you even if it has no impact on me, if it has a big greater impact on the greater good. But I’m definitely more interested in something that’s going to have an impact on me. So you really need to understand your audience, you need to understand what motivates your audience. And then you have to be very, very intentional about crafting your message. So it creates that emotional connection, we talk about that a lot. Here’s another place where this becomes very, very critical. So the key to these emotional connections is to be relational. So relational is like, we are in this together. Like we’re all in this this pursuit or this mission for the greater good. Without getting pretentious, which is I know what’s best for it. And we laugh because please believe that we know we’ve been there. I mean, I don’t know how many times yes, that’s that’s been everyone’s ego gets the best of them at some point. Well, it’s kind of like the the last ditch effort of like, you know, I mean, we do it from a mom standpoint, too. It’s like, I’m the mom I’m like, because I know what’s best right? Just stop. So I’ll give you those some some points about how to do this, right? How do you create these emotional connections? So first is to find a common pain point, right. And this is the key to brand storytelling anyway. So if you know your audience, you know what’s causing them angst, you know, what’s causing them that tension, and then find a common goal or mission. Alright, so again, if that’s the we’re all in this together, like we’re all wanting to get to this point that I am advocating for. So therefore, you should get on board with me and we can make this a group effort. You definitely want to share your vision how to positively impact more people than just you when people think you’re just in it for you. It’s really hard for them to get on board. Right. Kind of to the point that I was just saying before, also, and this is a key one and people missed us a ton is educate on the status quo and why is insufficient? Yep, that’s a big one and do it in a very compelling way. A lot of people will do it in a very personal way. Well, I just don’t like that. That’s just unfair, or it shouldn’t be like that. But what is that status quo doing that is causing greater damage or greater anxiety or greater tension to more people than just you? And me, bro? I know you have some builds on this.

April Martini 25:16
Yeah, well, and I love that one too. And I just want to add that it builds confidence too, right. So when you’re trying to express your point of view, and you can relate to the audience that you’re trying to sell it to that it is much bigger than just any of those people in the room, and they can understand and make the connection to that, it makes it an easier thing for them to swallow versus it being just pertaining to this group, or those types of groups. And I do agree this one gets lost. But the other ones I will add is relate to their situation with examples that pertain to them and how it can be mitigated. So are we doing something that makes your life easier, or we know that this is a struggle, and so we want to do this, because that’ll alleviate what’s going on those types of things, overtly state that you’re not in it for yourself, but trying to find common ground, I mean, obviously, you have to do this in an authentic way. And that’s it has to be of your true motivation. But I mean, a lot of times when I feel like I’ve gotten into tough situations with clients, if I can express, you know, it would be easier for me, to tell you the easier answer or to blow smoke or to tell you everything’s great and good. But I’m trying here to fix the situation or offer a better way. I’m in it for that bigger picture versus for myself. And then the other one I would say is enlist others to help promote the point of view in an authentic way, it doesn’t just have to be you in the hot seat. And and I do this all the time, if one of us feels like we’re not having particular success, and we’re aligned on the point of views, sometimes we tap the other one in and have them come in and make a run at it right? There are lots of different personalities and lots of different communication styles. And the way in which you say things is often more important than what you’re actually saying in a lot of cases in order to get over this hump. So enlist other people that can be supporters of the point of view, and maybe express it in a better way that communicates to the audience. Yeah, I

Anne Candido 27:20
really liked that last point of time, because it gets to another key point of how do you create those brand love vehicles. And we talk about from a branding context, which is to have an authentic storyteller. And then realize sometimes that storyteller is not you. Because if you have or you’re perceived to have a huge vested interest, or you’re running a big agenda, or maybe you’re not as popular with your audience, sometimes you can get in the way, and you can be the barrier to getting your POV through. And sometimes it’s better to like you said enlist or tap somebody else in that can convey that point of view in a way that is highly compelling to the audience in a way that they’re going to hear it and they’re going to want to engage in it. I mean, that’s why we have influencers and branding. That’s why we have ambassadors and sponsors in all of a lot of branding and businesses because it helps to convey the message in a different way so that people can hear it a little bit differently. Yeah, exactly. Alright, so just to recap how to gain traction for your POV, you simple and consistent language, make it easy for your audience to follow. So it doesn’t become one more barrier to gaining traction for your POVs. Second, repetition is key, develop a message track and use it everywhere. There are don’t try to sell the barn with the chickens. In other words, avoid packing too much in each messaging exchange in an effort to get it all out there or sell it all at once. And finally, prioritize the why and the impact. These are key to building those emotional connections that will compel agreement. Alright, our next segment is in the trenches. This is where we give real world examples specific to industries and situations but with broad application, so all of you guys can digest and put into action. Alright, so the first in the trenches question. Sometimes I get stuck in these types of conversations because they get off track, or I feel like I’m just responding without actually getting to what I want to say, what can I do? Alright, so this is where a couple of techniques that we’ve used and come from my history of PR, I think worked really, really well. So first is called Bridging. And I alluded to this before. So this is when you use something the audience has said it to springboard to a topic you actually want to talk about. And this only works if you actually answered them first. Alright, so so we’re gonna demonstrate this. Alright, so April asked me what I think about obj joining the Cowboys, and of course you bring up a sportsman. I’m not expecting you to actually know what I’m even talking about, but okay, well, that’s not very nice. All right.

April Martini 29:47
What do you think about OBJ joining the Cowboys?

Anne Candido 29:50
Well, April, I mean, if he can actually play, then I think it has some potential, but what I’m more concerned about is The impact he’s gonna have on the culture, because he has that kind of personality has a bit of abrasive personality and a Cowboys are playing really well. And we know how important culture is to actually creating teams. So streon teams, yep. And so even like, if you’re thinking about your business, right, and you’re thinking about that team that you’re trying to pull together, there’s always that one outlier rate that you bring in because they can be high performing. But in a lot of cases, they can also cause a lot of angst for the team. And what that generally happens is a team ends up breaking down. Yep. Alright, so I just bridge twice. Right? And within that, so I answered April’s questions directly. But then what did i April you can decipher? What did you think I really wanted to talk about,

April Martini 30:45
all right, so the analogy was good in this instance, because it brought up the actual topic here, which is, and being able to give her point of view about what actually happens in the team environment, when you bring someone on that is a little bit more of a quote unquote, cowboy or has a strong personality. And therefore what that’s going to do to the overall team, so less about the answer to the individual that was being brought on and more about what the result will be. Exactly, yes. So you can imagine how that but I’ve been central to my is gonna be putting hotseat Jesus. All right,

Anne Candido 31:20
sometimes. You did really well. So either I’m a really good bridger or you’re really good assessor. So

April Martini 31:27
maybe a little bit of both. Okay.

Anne Candido 31:31
Another technique is to ask a question based on a previous statement, questions are always really good to solicit engagement. So for example, you mentioned before that you really hate change the scope. Why is that? And a follow up to that would be well, what would make you think differently about that? Right? So have them articulate what their feelings their angst or tensions, their mission and vision is? What are they trying to get out of it? This is how you really identify their currency. And if you want more about how to actually use these techniques, get Adam Grant’s new book, Think Again, and pay special attention to the debate piece, because ironically, these are very key points of how do you debate. And the two really big nuances here that I want you guys to take out a bit is finding common ground is a really fantastic way for actually then bridging to that level of agreement that gets people to track with your POV. The other one, which is a little bit of an aside here, but I think also very important is don’t litter your whole conversation with a gazillion themes, messages or points to try to reinforce why somebody should agree with you. Because what happens in that is, people see it as an opportunity to pick and choose what they’re not going to agree with. So you want to stick with a few key points. And again, when we said Repetition is key, you want to keep on re emphasizing those points, maybe different ways in about how to think about those points. But the points are the same. Because when you start introducing a bunch of other different points, people are like, wow, that little like point over here, I’m not really an agreement in that might have been like very small, insignificant part of the overall discussion that you wanted to have.

April Martini 33:07
Yeah, 100%. And first, I will say I just also finished Adam Grant’s Think Again, as well. And I love this point about debate, I was kind of in the middle of the book when I started going through this episode. And one of the things that struck me is, the quicker you can get to taking the emotion out of the situation and focusing on the challenge that’s actually at hand, the better off you will be in order to stay on track. And one of the things that I feel like I often say when I feel like we’re veering off, or we’re, you know, I’m getting off track they’re getting off track is to say, look, this is not personal. It’s about the work. And so if we can remember that and go back to that place, then that kind of reorients and brings us back to what we’re trying to achieve and just reground the conversation. And recently, actually Anna and I had a conversation. Well, because someone gave us feedback of how directly we communicate with each other about our point of views, which is a little bit of an aside. But he was basically a viewer, we were putting together a presentation and we were commenting back and forth to each other. And he was like, I can’t believe that’s how you talk to each other. And I was like, What do you mean? And I went back and read and I was like, Oh, it is super, super direct. But because we’ve had the conversation so many times about this where we’re like, it’s about the work. It’s not about you or me, it’s about making it better. We don’t even say that anymore. We just go in and we start hammering, you know, and it’s it’s never an aggressive thing, although I can totally see how he was like you wrote those in me and she just ripped into the one I’m like, but she was she wrong? Or was she right? Like she was right? Well, yes, about the work. So I don’t have any emotion associated to that. We’re just getting to the best work. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing I want to say is this is where the discipline comes in, because I think being really focused on what you want people to hear and the couple of points you’re going to make It always takes me back to the tell people what you’re going to tell them, tell them and then remind them what you told them. Yeah. And I think that that structure holds up really, really well here, because it reminds you to stay on track and kind of that, if they only hear one thing from you today, what do I want it to be, and then you can continue to reinforce that. So that then you’re going to be thrown curveballs, you can’t Intuit what other people are going to say or how they’re going to react. Even if you’re the most empathetic person in the world, you can’t predict that. So this keeps you grounded in your space in making the actual arguments where you need to debating where you need to conceding when you need to, if you have that very firm within your head.

Anne Candido 35:43
I think that’s all really, really good points. All right, the second in the trenches question, what are the biggest mistakes you see people make in trying to gain traction for their POV? Alright, so we mentioned a few of these upfront of the episodes. So we’ll just we’ll get into these a little bit more detail. So here’s where people tend to make fatal flaws. So first, they go to people’s bosses to get them on board and try to get him or her the boss, in this case, to get their people on board. That bad behavior. It never works, guys, you can’t circumvent getting people aligned by forcing them in to the POV through the backdoor, you may get temporary consent, but you’re going to get it be grudgingly and you’re not going to get the best amount of effort out of it that you want from these people who are you’re going to need them as your allies in order to forward your POV. Because, as we’ve talked about a lot, we’re all humans, we need other humans to achieve our goals and dreams, in this case are POVs. So you can’t count out the other humans, right. Another is making threats. And this is basically if we don’t do it my way, I’m taking my ball and going home. And everybody has some level of interpretation of what this means. And you guys all know what I’m talking about fear mongering or generally over inflating the downside when not true. It’s called sandbagging and sandbagging in a big way. Basically, if we don’t do this, it could be catastrophic, right? You know, so you really emphasize the downside, in order to get people to do it just out of fear. So usually people can sniff this out. And in usually, then it doesn’t give you a lot of great credibility as you’re trying to forward, you’re put POV again and again. So it tends to get people very skeptical very, very quickly. But it causes a lot of noise in the system about your integrity, so don’t do that. Another one is undermining other people’s expertise or qualifications. I’ve been doing this longer than anyone. I’ve been here for 30 years, I’ve been in this role for, you know, five years, I’ve risen up through the ranks faster than any but like, whatever you want to qualify it is whenever you start playing a game with somebody and you’re trying to undermine them and put underneath your thumb in order to get them to get to your point of view quicker. That’s just never going to work because it didn’t cause them to question the other person’s intelligence. Yes. And experience and makes them feel small. So don’t do that. What’s your builds on this one? April?

April Martini 38:15
Yeah. So I have a few in addition to the ones I mentioned at the beginning, the first one I’ll bring forward as bulldozing and not bringing other people along. Oh, yeah, I’ve never done that. Yeah, me neither. This is the whole you just charge

Anne Candido 38:30
ahead. And might’ve been my first 10 years of my career, when I was called a Mussolini.

April Martini 38:37
I mean, so this one is, you know, you just plow ahead and you turn around and no one’s behind you anymore. That’s what we mean by this. If you’re not doing yourself any favors, this is undermining in another way, talking and talking and talking until people are just too tired. And so they give in that one yeah, I have no patience for I did not ever do that one. I just I it just drove me crazy. And the final one that I have is grandstanding, which is focusing more on being on stage and then losing the point of why we’re here. So it becomes more of a performance instead of an actual point of view directed at some kind of solution that you want to get to it’s your time in the sun or time in the limelight or whatever. And so the focus is completely lost. And this comes off as being very inauthentic. All of this is tone deaf and it undermines everyone that you’re directing your message to because you’re disrespecting their time and their intelligence and their ability with these behaviors.

Anne Candido 39:37
Yep, agree. All right are third in the trenches question is taking so long to get people on board? Are there other ways of fast tracking? So I would say you need to set reasonable expectations for how long it will take and how much effort it’s going to take to move people people tend to weigh underestimate the time it’s going to take and they get very frustrated very quickly. And the day attendant To fall into one of those behaviors we just mentioned, but it should come as no surprise that the more change or the more you’re trying to move against the status quo, it’s going to take longer, especially if your position tends to be a little bit unpopular, or it’s a little bit more obscure, it’s not the most common opinion, you have to take that into consideration, you have to decide if it’s worth it or not, like, you don’t need to be a crusader on a certain POV. If it’s got going to benefit you or you don’t feel like there’s enough there to benefit you, if you were to deliver it. Sometimes, again, it’s a dog with a bone thing, we get stuck in these POVs. And we just want to win. Right? Sometimes we forget about the cost, it’s happening to us, it’s happening to our families, it’s happening to our colleagues, it’s happening to our reputation. So take a pause and check in on a regular basis to see if it’s continues to be worth

April Martini 40:51
the effort. All right, one other one I’ll throw in before we move forward is take into account the culture of the organization. Yes, it’s where I’ve gotten myself in trouble, too. Yeah, if it’s just a slow moving culture, you got to figure out how to work within that you can’t just push

Anne Candido 41:04
forward. Right, right. I think that’s a really, really good point. Now you can nudge people along. Yeah, right. So we’ll give you some tips here and hadn’t nudge people along. So first is have regular follow ups to hold them accountable. So as we said, you know, not sign the barn with the chickens, you want to solicit engagement. So you get to a point where you can close, you know, we ABC always be closing, right. So you get to a point where you can close on a certain aspect of that discussion. And you come back for more once you have done your homework on satisfying whatever the challenges were to get to the next stage, which again, requires you to listen to what those challenges might be. So that usually involves you doing work, if you are going to do any work on your part. And you’re gonna keep going back in asking them to reconsider when you have not listened to what their concerns are and tried to address them, you are not going to get anywhere. You can also do your part to for the work that elicits new engagement, right? So this goes to the point that I was just saying is once they’ve said, Okay, I want this, then go do that. And then come back, don’t just sit there and get that engagement and then go back to them without having something to show for the agreement that you guys have made that educate at a grander scale and make it a higher profile conversation or make your POV popular. Yep. If you’re more of an entrepreneur, this might be doing more PR elements of the communications plan where you’re seeding your POV, you’re putting your your thought leadership out there, and you’re establishing more traction on a global scale for your POV that helps you to drive more groundswell at the lower levels. And then as April said, get other credible supporters and have them be your ambassadors word of mouth is a really great way in order to try to move peoples and get them more in line with your POV.

April Martini 42:53
Yeah, and all of these I mean, I think speak to accountability on both sides, right, or enticement. So I’m a big fan of really specific tools that helped to get to that. So a brief that outlines while you’re all here, we have an episode on this one, too, if you need it, please go seek it out. And then always bringing it into the room and referring back to it, you’re telling people what you’re going to tell them, you tell them, You tell them what you told them, right, every single meeting, the brief needs to be there. And then the timeline or the gates to decide and move things forward with an end goal that then does not move. And this can be really, really hard. So decide what the end goal is, and then back up from there. And then don’t let it slip, which is a huge challenge in and of itself. But it’s about making people accountable, including yourself and holding people’s feet to the fire to move things forward. And then this is a little bit like ans one. And I’ve mentioned this before about getting credible supporters and having them be your ambassadors, but bringing on other point of views outside of your own to educate the group. And this could be people. But this could also be case studies and industry where this has worked for other industries where it has worked or thought leaders that have spoken on this topic before. It doesn’t always have to be you like ansaid that is putting forth the point of view. And it’s really good if you can leverage expertise outside of your company or the people in the room or whatever, to show that this point of view has legs beyond just this organization.

Anne Candido 44:21
Yeah, that’s a really good point. And I love the one you said about timeliness because AI is crucial to gaining traction is that if there’s too much time in between engagements or points or milestones or whatever you’re in a setting up as your process, then you tend to lose traction like it definitely tends to stall traction. So it’s up to you to define what that time point needs to be that you continue to engage so that you can keep top of mind so you so people know that this is still important to you so that they know that you’re working against it. And again, it may be milestones within the milestone have like, Okay, well, we haven’t gone to the total point where you’re at, we’re gone to this point, are we on the right track is this feeling more along the lines of what you were talking about this address your concern, we’re still working towards what you said. But this helped to get us there. So do those check ins, do those checkpoints, and keep a regular pace of that, and don’t slide without having a rational reason why in communicating that because if they don’t think it’s important to you to keep it on track, then they’re definitely not gonna think it’s important enough for them to keep it on

April Martini 45:32
track, not to mention all of the rework that happens if you are able to get something back on track after it has fallen off, it just becomes so inefficient, and like you said, not to focus on

Anne Candido 45:42
right, you kind of almost go to the bottom again. Yes, exactly. All right. And our third and final segment is where we highlight companies or brands that may or may not be using their marketing smarts and may or may not have anything to do with today’s episode. Does this one have?

April Martini 45:57
Well, you always like to make the tie so I feel like you say no, and then you make it

Anne Candido 46:00
well, that’s why I’m saying I wasn’t trying not to bait and switch or try not to sandbag in this case. But I guess this would, this is my POV. So we’ll see how compelling I am in getting traction for it. Okay, but unfortunately, it’s more of a negative one. So

April Martini 46:14
we’ll see. I saw what it was. And I was like, I can’t imagine anyway.

Anne Candido 46:18
Okay, yeah, sometimes I don’t put it in there. Because I just want to like, tease it up. So in the light of everything that just happened with Taylor Swift and the Ticketmaster fiasco, I have been thinking a lot about monopolies and business and the one that I feel is actually very pressing to me in my world in Cincinnati is Soccer Village. Okay. Okay. So Soccer Village, for all of you guys don’t know is probably one of the only places that is completely dedicated to selling soccer gear. It’s what all the club teams go through in order to order all their kits, it has the best selection of cleats. And it’s just, I mean, there’s a couple within Cincinnati. So that’s where we go to buy credit and my daughter’s cleats, because Dick’s doesn’t have the selection because they have to look good, and they have to be functional. It’s not just an awful lot. She does wear a lot. I hear the girl. Yeah. So we went to soccer village in order to get her new cleats. And we went through the selection. And she’s like, I might want to try these. And I was like, alright, well try them. They’re different than what you have. But you know, this triumph. She’d only worn them four times, and the seal against the toe started to separate and she was getting shin splints and her feet are going on. So I was like, Well, you can’t wear these. I’m like, this is not going to work. So I took them back to soccer village thinking it was like any running shoe store in Cincinnati, like fleet fee, which I love, where you know, you get to take them home and get to try them. And if you don’t like them, you can bring it back within 30 days. Or it might be three days might be less than that. And please don’t quote me on that. Right. And so they want you to go out and try them. Yeah, that’s the only way you know, that’s the only way you really know especially if you’re switching brands or even styles within brands Exactly. Or they are even the brands change from sometimes one way there’s no next right? Yeah, I mean, I bought the exact same shoe before and it fit different like the exact same ship. Yeah, for sure. So I brought him back thinking oh, maybe they’re gonna let me exchange them return them it’s only been like a week and they’re like, No, we can’t we can’t take these back. I’m like, What do you mean you can’t take these back? And they’re like, well we don’t you know there’s they’ve been worn like, well of course they’ve been worn but she’s only one of my four times they still look pretty new. I’m like poster coming apart here. She’s having shins when I went through the spiel with the guy and he goes, Well, how do you get a shin splints and I’m numb feet are due to the shoes. Oh. And I’m like, because she didn’t have them before he goes, Well, it’s getting colder out and you’re the turfs are getting harder. I’m like, she plays soccer all year round is never had this problem until she put on these cleats a week ago. Yeah, right. So I’m like, No, and plus, they’re coming apart. Well, they’re not coming apart so much that it’s going to impact her and how she’s playing their shoes. I was like, Wait a second. I’m like, so your shoes are supposed to start coming apart in four days. I said, Listen, I said, this is just starting. I mean, this could be like, disastrous in the next couple of weeks. Like where it’s like totally separate. He goes well or may not at all. Oh, and I was like, so you’re not going to take these back. He’s like, No, but of course the only place to go by cleats is soccer village. So I had to spend more money on the cleats and buy her another pair which by the way, was a pair that she’s had before it’s just a newer model had no problem since right. And so when I asked him to then I said well, do you have a donation like policy then like, where are you like take these and you know, give them to kids or whatever they need? And he goes, No. You don’t even have a donation. Because sometimes people come in and they take them for kids and like, you know through all countries or whatever I’m like, I wouldn’t be make sure I is getting to somebody like that I know is gonna give him a refund or any sort of credit or anything. Yes. And so I was like, there is another example of a monopoly, a business who has no competition, so therefore, their customer service is like, not there. Because like I said, any other running shoe business in Cincinnati will take those shoes back. I don’t know what they do with them, but they take them back. And it’s literally no questions asked no questions asked, other than I want to help you find like ones that Well, me. Yeah, tell me what went wrong. Like it’s an altruistic thing. It’s not like trying to catch you. Well, even when my ons basically fell apart. All right. So they they put me in the wrong ones for what I was going to use them for, in a basically like all wore out really quickly, like, like before, they just took them back. And they gave me a credit towards a new pants. Right. And so this is what I’m saying is that competition is good. Yes. Right. And you can extrapolate that you want to do. And so I would say you need to respect consumers, you need to respect your customers. It may that competition may not be in your face right now. But there is just too much of a world out there where people can figure out other ways of getting things done. Yep. And they would never would have thought in a million years, I would be blasting him on a podcast that lots of people are listening to. So listen to them. Yep. No,

April Martini 51:21
I mean, I think it’s all true. I mean, you know, we have another episode upcoming here shortly about how to reach the consumer, because the world is always changing from that standpoint, and what you can track and what you can’t track and all of that, but I don’t think it’s ever going to change that consumer’s king. I totally agree with you. I’m like, if it’s not today, and they can live in this monopoly space right now, that’s fine. But I just really do believe that everybody gets their come up in some day. And what I see happens is when these monopolies exist, the companies get lazy, which is the example you just gave. And all it takes is somebody else to come up with a better, more innovative way to get those shoes in the hands of the consumer or whatever else they sell. And then they’re dead in the water because they haven’t done anything to build loyalty or have consumers have any sort of connection to their brand. They’re just selling the commodity because they are the only ones that can sell that particular product right now.

Anne Candido 52:18
I agree. And so if anybody needs a size eight and a half pair of Nike cleats or nice cleats, just DM me because they only want to give me like $20 at Play It Again Sports for cleats that I spent $85 on like 4 days ago. Alright, enough of that. So just to recap how to gain traction for your POB first, you simple and consistent language make it easy for your audience to follow so it doesn’t become one more barrier to gaining traction for your POVs second repetition is key. Develop a message track and use it everywhere. Third, don’t try to sell the barn with the chickens. In other words, avoid packing too much in each messaging exchange in an effort to get it all out there or sell it all at once. And finally prioritize the why in the impact. These are key to building those emotional connections that will compel agreement and with that will say go and exercise your Marketing Smarts!

April Martini 53:07
Still need help in growing your Marketing Smarts? Contact us through our website: ForthRight-People.com. We can help you become a savvier marketer through coaching or training you and your team or doing the work on your behalf. Please also help us grow the podcast by rating and reviewing on your player of choice and sharing with at least one person. Now go show off your Marketing Smarts!