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Removing the Barriers to Getting Good Work: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Sep 06, 2022

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

This is Episode #112 and we’re eliminating the distractions that hinder good work. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
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Marketing Smarts Episode #112: Removing the Barriers to Getting Good Work

It can be a really tough – but beautiful – thing to get your team to work together towards a common goal. It’s essential for the success of your company, but there are so many distractions that can take away from good work. How do you remove those barriers? In this episode, you’ll learn how to focus your team, manage egos, and nominate the right people. You’ll also find out how to make sure everyone feels their voice is heard, what to do about those on the quieter side, and how to know it’s time to concede. This episode covers everything from distractions to avoiding swirl. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • How do you manage the distractions that impact good work?
  • What does a brief have to do with productivity?
  • How do you make sure the CEO doesn’t come in and take over?
  • What is swirl?
  • How do you navigate being on the quieter side?
  • What should you do about FOMO at work?
  • How do Anne & April deal with this topic?
  • What is Kroger Home Chef doing well?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at:

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 


Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:02
This is Marketing Smarts – a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader, no matter your level. In each episode, we will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We will also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. And if you miss anything, don’t worry, we put worksheets on our website that summarize the key points. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to

April Martini 0:30
Marketing Smarts.

Anne Candido 0:31
I am Anne Candido.

April Martini 0:32
And I am April Martini. And today we’re going to talk about a tricky topic that seems to come up often with our various clients. And that is how to manage the distractions that get in the way of good work. And I say tricky, because there are a ton of variables that pop up when trying to push the work through and get to a good solution. So that’s what we’re here to address today. Yeah, and this one applies no matter what business you’re in what size of business, the material business, or if your agency or corporate is something we all face and continue to face in our jobs no matter where we are. Exactly, and therefore the reason for the episode. So let’s get into removing the barriers to getting good work. Point number one, start every communication with the problem we are trying to solve. And I will take this one, let’s face it, we have more on our plates to deal with than we’ve ever had before, thanks to Yes, the digital age, but easier access to people all day on the Zoom calls project management platforms. You name the culprit, the reality is that we again manage more than we’ve ever had to before. So it’s really important to recenter at many points throughout the day, because we’re pulled in so many directions so that we’re able to focus on what we actually need to get done. And in our minds, it doesn’t matter how you’re reaching out to communicate about the work that you’re trying to make good. It starts with any and all communications. So what you’re trying to do is remind people why we are here on this assignment, what is the problem that we are collectively trying to solve? This is why we’ve talked about this on previous episodes, we find the brief, so important. It’s in larger part, the reason that you have to align to one but you don’t have time to regurgitate the entire brief and every communication, you would lose attention span and commitment and and all of those things from people if you tried to do it. But if you just remind everyone of the problem and then send along whatever they’re supposed to react to, or communicate it in a meeting, if you’re in person, it gives them a moment to refocus their brains and concentrate on the reason that they are in this meeting. It also kicks things off for the discussion or any feedback that you’re given from a more objective place versus people just throwing up whatever emotional reaction they might have, at that point in time, given whatever else was going on in their day before coming to this, it hits more of that reset button.

Anne Candido 3:02
Yeah, and I think what also does is it makes the whole conversation more objective, right. And so when I was in these situations, especially in a multifunctional situation where we were had to evaluate something, or we had to go in, and we were having a discussion about something specific identifying the problem was always number one. But then it’s always important for you to also understand what your own decision criteria is yes to that, because as you said, like these conversations with you get highly emotional. And it becomes very personal very quickly, especially if you’re throwing out options, or you’re throwing out ideas. And you have different perspectives or different points of views for how to get the work done. So for example, when we went into creative review, I always had some rubric or some decision criteria by which I was evaluating the creative, especially coming from somebody like place like communications where it wasn’t like the core to make a decision about the creative, but it was a very important influencer of the creative. So that helped people understand my POV, what was important to me what I thought was going to be able to be amplified based on what I was seeing in front of me. And that became the what I was known for. So it was always like, Okay, well Brianne in, because she’s going to tell us how we’re going to take this and get it off of a 30-second TV spot and into the zeitgeist of the communications realm, you know, whether or not that be in influencers, or whether that be in any kind of publications. And so it starts giving some credibility to your point of view. And it avoids, again, the emotional reaction of like, well, I just don’t like it. And then because then people question well, who are you to say you don’t like it? Like, that’s not your role to say you don’t like it your role is to tell me, can it be amplified or not? How do I make it amplify double or not? Right. So that is, I think, part of this whole point.

April Martini 4:51
Yeah, I mean, I think that is exactly right. And I love the idea of coming in with your own criteria on top of reminding People have the problem, because I think to your point, and it helps every person in the room, remember what their role is in the conversation based on their job, not to your point, whatever emotion they want to communicate, and then it allows for quicker decision making and outcomes, because everyone is there to play a specific role, or they wouldn’t be part of the work of the project. And so therefore, it almost like gets everyone in line. Right, so to speak, to the way that they’re supposed to operate and keep the emotion out of it a

Anne Candido 5:33
little bit, right. 100%? Yeah.

April Martini 5:36
All right. Point number two, to removing the barriers to getting good work, manage the egos according to their personality. And I’m going to give this one too. And,

Anne Candido 5:46
yes, so as we all know, we and we all say frequently, that we’re all very busy. And I always laugh when I asked my husband, how was your day? And he says, I was busy. I’m like, Well, of course you were busy. Are you paid not to be busy? Just curious. But that’d be an aside, it does create a sense of like a self focused, kind of element of the group discussion, right? So it becomes about like, what’s important to me? What do I need to get done? How am I heard? How’s this situation going to benefit me? And we’ve talked a lot about how that egocentric mindset isn’t very conducive to developing good solutions that are ultimately good for the work. Yes. So really, the objective here is like to get people out of their egocentric mindsets in order to be able to have good conversations or productive conversations. And that can be very difficult. So what are some of the things that we’ve learned in order to be able to handle these people who kind of come in with more of that egocentric mindset is to really address it head on without being confrontational? Yes. Right. You can’t go toe to toe with somebody who is going to sit in their ego because they want to be right, they want to win, they want to be heard. So if you try to make them wrong, if you try to Trump them, they’re just going to try harder to overcome it. So what you can do is you can start kind of playing to their personalized, like, what is their intent for why they are doing what they’re doing? There’s always in intent behind it. Right? So if it’s they want to be heard, well, then fine, acknowledge the fact I hear you Yeah, I think what you said is very, very important. We have documented it, we put it in a parking lot, we put it on the board, it has been captured, and maybe even asked somebody to weigh in on the thought. So you can create it create a little bit more conversation about it. So that’s one thing, if you know going in ahead of time, but they’re going to be disruptive to the conversation, you can try to kind of cut it off at the past and have the conversation ahead of time and say, Hey, listen, I know you’re really strong here. I know, you have a big point of view, I we’ve talked about that, what I really need your help with is helping to really cultivate and actually kind of bring out other people’s point of view. So we can make sure that we have that diversity of thought going into this decision or, or weighing whatever we’re weighing here, so that we’re not being single mindedly focused. So if you can help me be able to kind of create that conversation, you kind of make them a partner Yes, versus making them one of all the other ones. And that’s usually worse for somebody who’s personalized him, but that they want to feel unique. They want to feel like they are a standout. Like they’re a thought leader. So you have to really understand their personality in order to kind of tailor how you want to approach somebody that you know is going to be egocentric, but don’t try to dismiss it because that won’t work. If they don’t undermine you in the meeting, they’ll undermine you around the meeting, they will Yes. So make sure that you’re thinking about that, understand the dynamics, and then you can actually address it in it hopefully ahead of time. But in the meeting as well.

April Martini 8:47
Yeah, and I also just want to make the point that on top of that there are there is strength in numbers. So one way to do it is to take the egomaniac or whatever you want to call them on and make them your friend. But you can also make other people that are going to be part of it your friend, too. So as you were talking, I was thinking, a lot of times I think that the person that’s running the project feels like all of the onus is on them. And that’s actually not true. So when I was faced with some of these situations, because I don’t have a lot of patience for egos, I recognize that just by the nature of who I am sometimes me being the person to confront, put that other person on the defensive, because they know I’m direct and all those types of things. So what I started trying to do was to find someone that was perhaps a little more level headed, that would take a better tone with these folks and allow them to help me because all the points are really good, right? Whether you do it in the room or you do it before the meeting or you pull them aside or whatever it is. The managing the function of that can happen however, but sometimes there can be other people that may be able to help you do it. better than you doing it yourself?

Anne Candido 10:02
Yeah, and I think we pointed out when we specifically kind of gravitate towards meetings, because this is usually where the egocentric nature pops up. Because egocentric people need a stage, yes. But this can happen in one on one conversations, too, and one on one interaction. So I think what you said is right on, it’s also good to let them kind of live out, to some extent, their egocentric personality. So if you know that they are rarely stuck on something, let them go in like and give them assignments, say, All right, well, that’s great thought go in, give me some perspective on that creates something for me so that we can actually process through that in a much more productive way, you know, entertain it a little bit, don’t let it get off the rails don’t waste people’s time, but also kind of realize that sometimes initially, you think it’s kind of like you kind of reacting more to the egocentric behave in the actually are the thoughts or the ideas, yes, really fair. So make sure you’re not being a barrier to good ideas, just because the egocentric nature of it is just kind of turning you off. So sometimes it’s good just to kind of let it run its course a little bit just to make sure that you’re honoring the the process.

April Martini 11:11
Yeah, and as you were talking to, and I think the point is well taken that the stage needs to happen. On the other side, I think sometimes the ego can come into play with people that are passive aggressive, oh, you’re in the email, or the communication, I actually was just having this conversation this morning with a client. And I was asked to read a communication. And I could see it coming from a million miles away, right. And I know enough about the players to know why it was happening and who it was, and whatever. And in this case, there were two parties that were kind of like supporting each other in the passive aggressiveness against the other person, you know. And so we had to have the whole reset conversation to the point of this point, right? We’re bringing things to you that happened to us all the time with our clients of, okay, we need to push that aside and ignore that behavior, we need to recenter the conversation again, remind everyone, this is why we’re here. Okay, acknowledged, there have been things that haven’t gone great or resetting at this point. But you know, all of these things, they come to light in very different ways. So just be on the lookout, and the more proactive you can be. And also, the more that you can cut it off at the past, the better off you’ll be. Yeah, I agree. All right, point number three, nominate the right person to deliver the work. We just talked about having someone else maybe manage the ego. This is not so different from that I already talked about how stylistically I can sometimes be an acquired taste.

Anne Candido 12:39
I like you right from the beginning.

April Martini 12:42
That’s true. I can go either way. Sometimes it also depends whether or not I like you transparently. So therefore the reason Anna and I are sitting here today. But anyway, I think, you know, this is the other side of ego. So if you’re the one leading a project, and it’s your baby, and all of those things, naturally, I think the inclination is to be the one that presents the outcomes of the work, right? Unfortunately, you might not be the person to deliver the message. And this can happen for a whole host of reasons I just talked about stylistically what can happen. There can also be just politics going on based on level, even if you’re the one that has the right solution, if you don’t match the level of the people in the room, how is that going to go over? There can be things where maybe you’ve been in the hot seat for a little too long throughout the course of the project. And so now really, it needs to be someone else’s turn because no matter what you say, you’re going to take the heat, right? The point is that if there is going to be a hard message delivered, we spend a lot of time on the show talking about tone, and how important tone is to anything you’re going to deliver against your brand. It is more important in a lot of cases that you hit the right tone based on your audience than the actual message you’re going to deliver. Exactly. And so in order for that message to get through, you have to swallow your own ego sometimes and say, You know what, I am not the right person for whatever reason, I am dedicated to getting to the right work, the best work we possibly can the outcomes that are right for our client, whatever that looks like. And so I’m going to remove myself from that seat and insert someone else and really frankly, we just went through this situation recently, you know, we have a client that for whatever reason, probably because I’m, you know, to kill the messenger, a little bit situation. I’ve had to deliver some really hard information. And while I am doing that in really good faith again to getting to the right work. It’s not being received from my mouth well anymore. And so this is the exact conversation that I had where she said you know what, number one I think it’s time for me to share some of that hot seat. Yeah. Number two I think that we will get the work through better. And number three, at the end of the day, you can tell because this person is continuing to stick with us that they know what we’re saying is right, right. It’s just that I, they don’t want to hear it from me anymore. And I can tell you, it’s a really difficult place to be. And you heard me say that I just have no patience for this kind of behavior. But the reality is, is that it exists. And you can do what I tried to do early in my career and shove your way through and ended up being asked off of a client, which is only happened once but happened because I was pushing real hard. Or you can take a break, step back, think about it objectively, like we’ve talked about so far throughout the episode and say, You know what, as long as we get to the right work, I don’t care about any of this other stuff, that is something out of my control. So I’m going to let someone else take a run on it.

Anne Candido 15:50
Yeah, and I think the last thing you said is really, really important for everybody to hear is that the way that you you develop a highly functional team, is by keeping that big goal that like, visionary goal out there. And it’s always about doing good work. So whatever leads to doing good work and trying to take yourself out of that equation, so that you can objectively see what is going to deliver good work. And another part of that we always talk about this is the balance of role and skill, right? Sometimes they feel like we were put in certain roles, we have to do lovers certain skills, and we still get very narrow minded and very narrow focused on it has to be be that delivers that because I had to try to have creative director therefore all the creative needs to come from my little brain, right? No, I the objective of creative director is to direct the creative, which means they’re supposed to cultivate and bring in all the ideas from everybody else. Not that my little brain has to deliver all the creative, right? So really be really very careful about one. And I’ve said this in the past, like how you set up roles, yes, but then to what the expectations of those roles are, because it starts getting people very narrowly focused on if I don’t deliver exactly what this role dictates, I have all of a sudden fail. Yes, right, which is not the case. So anybody who’s leading a team, your job is exactly what April said is, which is to deliver good work. However, that work needs to get delivered, however, you choose to orchestrate that. That doesn’t mean that you as the person all of a sudden have to become like, I am the blessed leader that ever walked the face of the earth. And so therefore, all everything that I say is going to be prophesied down to all my people, and they’re all gonna follow me. It’s like, oh, well, these people are not like actually being able to engage with me the way that I want them to something that working there. So I’m going to have my other person my second command, maybe manage that part of the work because they can feel silicate that a little bit better, because my objective, if I’m looking at my big goal is to actually deliver good work. Yeah. So I think that’s really important point that you’ve just got to sometimes get out of that idea that our role dictates our skill. And so therefore, we’re stuck.

April Martini 17:54
Well, and I know one of the things that you’re always saying is that it has to be that that goal has to be bigger than any one person’s job. Yes, can do. And I love that, because that’s the way that I think we orient all of our clients, and to remind them that not only should you not be limited by your title, but if you’re actually driving toward the right work for your business, in the way that everything is structured, a single person should not be able to deliver that goal by themselves

Anne Candido 18:24
that’s going to be on the ego too, is that I’m the only one that matters. Yes. Yeah. Right. My work is the only work that matters. Yeah, right, exactly. And that comes back to how you reward people to you. By the way, if you’re a manager or supervisor, if you’re rewarding people for their specific thing that they’re supposed to do. That’s all they’re gonna care about. If you if you reward them based on what the team collectively can produce, then they become a lot more mindful of what everybody else’s role is and what role they play within helping everybody else deliver what they need to do so that the work itself is as good as it can be.

April Martini 18:54
Yeah, it’s interesting, you bring that up, because I was reading something just last week, and this person had gone about building the team exactly the right way. Right. And then the boss above that person came in and said, Whoever gets the best feedback from the customer each week of this busy season was going to get $1,000 Bonus Oh, and just completely ruined mentality, right? Because it was like, Well, now you’ve just gone back to every man for themselves instead of oh, hey, if you guys collectively meet this goal, I’ll put X amount more in your check that pay period everybody

Anne Candido 19:29
$1,000 Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s a good example.

April Martini 19:34
Anyway. All right. So point number four concede where there is opportunity to do so also one that I had to learn the hard way in my career. So I will let and talk through this one first while

Anne Candido 19:45
you insinuate that I I am big, I was equally as bad at conceding, you know, because it’s so contrary to how we feel we need to show up in order to be strong in our role. And then as a leader, or whatever our career progression is leading us is that if we can see it all a sudden, we’re seen as weak, we’re seen as like being wishy washy, we’re seen as like not having conviction. Yep. And really what it’s about is being more it’s collaborative, it’s about being collaborative, and being about being inclusive of everybody who is actually participating. So what we’ve seen is that we see, like, people kind of dictate how to dictate everything down to a little nuances of like, it sounds like a silly thing to say, but like, what kind of food you’re gonna have to, like, you know, who gets to speak to, you know, and this nanny, and a lot of people think it’s like, if I’m the leader, I’m the only one who gets to speak, right. And because there’s a lot of control need for control there. But the point here is, is that you have to concede at some level in order for in order for everybody to feel included, in order for everybody to feel heard in order for everybody to feel bought in. You can’t be a leader if nobody is following Yes, all the time, right. So they look for those opportunities, and my allow you to concede something that allows somebody else to participate. So they feel bought in. And this goes from everybody on your team, to your management and to like maybe even agency pokes to your vendors. So for example, used to you really irritate me when I’m like, I’m leading a meeting and my boss wants to come in and sit in, I’m like, why are you here? I don’t need you. But then they want to have a roll. All right, fine, I will give you a rule, introduce whatever topic we’re providing, or give some sort of introduction or background or context for this meeting, you give, you know, five to 10 minutes, you can have your space. Hated it every time. Oh, I hated it. But I had to do it. Because one, it gave my boss a role, make them feel like they had a part to play made them feel included. Yes, right. But it also kept them from intervening it really like inopportune times or being disruptive, hopefully, when you give them a roll, right. So it’s one of those things I could concede and allow to happen so that the meeting can go much more smoothly. And we can get out of it that we want to what we want to get out of it. So those are things like I would say, look and see where you can concede a few things in order to have people feel like they’re bought in. But this also is about making sure you’re not the person in April said the hot seat in order to feel like you’re not always in a hot seat, find a way to like, have some people around you that are also providing maybe, contrary points of view. So this is another way that you can concede a little bit on the other side of like, not always having to be the bad guy. Yes. Right. Because sometimes, again, we get in these positions were like, oh, no, like, you know, I get to be the person who has control over everything. Well, yeah, that can be nice in some aspects, but then it also can be very debilitating in your relationship with other people. So I was given some advice on the point that I had to concede on, especially as a communications person and, and having to evaluate a lot of different marketing tactics that we wanted to do. I had to weigh in about whether or not I felt like that was going to be conducive to building our brand, or it was gonna be destructive to burning our brand. And so my A lot of times, I had to say no, yes. And I started getting the reputation of being like the person who was always saying no, and I’m like, I’m just trying to do what’s best for the business, even though I was saying no, and I was saying, but you could go do this, or you can go do that. One of the one day and one of my brand managers took me aside, he’s like, why don’t you let somebody else say no. And I’m like, What? What do you mean? How am I going to do that? He goes with legal, like, approve that in my mind a million years? And they said, he said, Well, then why don’t you suggest we take it to legal? Let them say no, and I’m like, That is a brilliant idea. Yep. So I can be like, Well, maybe you know, what’s the I see some, you know, pluses and minuses, let’s let’s take it to legal and then legal but shut it down. Yeah. Right. So it becomes a way of kind of like conceding a little bit of authority to some expect, but for the better benefit of maintaining a little bit more of harmonious interactions with you so that you can continue to show up and your behaviors and actions according to your personal brand, and the way that you want to show

April Martini 24:13
up. Yeah, and I think when you hear us talk about a lot of this lives in nuances, right, and it starts with letting your own ego go, and then finding a more quote unquote, creative solution. Because one of the things that we see all the time with our client and in our previous lives, we had this happen is swirl. Right, and why does swirl happen? And so when I think about this point about conceding, it is just such a smart thing to do. Because a lot of times when you hear someone stating something there a lot of times doing it over and over again because for some reason this is important to them right or or it’s Finding some value they think to their job or proving who they are, you know, all of these types of things. And so when I was in this position, and it became like herding cats, which inevitably, these situations arise, right? It basically became blocking and tackling. So it’d be like, Alright, fine, the new business guy is not going to give up on his logo quilt of every client we’ve ever worked on. Do I think that that’s relevant for this presentation? I don’t. But he has now said it in this meeting seven times in the past three pitches, give it to him. And then oh, by the way, tell him to go off and build that quilt so that he has a job that he can focus on that’s not in the middle of this right. Or to your point about the food, right, that always makes me chuckle. It’s like, I’m like, why don’t we just get this? And for me, it was always easy. Or if there was something the client was coming, and it was Cincinnati, right. But you know, and we had this one admin who just thought that she was the party planner extraordinaire, right? And so I’d be like, just ordered this. And she’d be like, Oh, but what if we did it? And then I would get 55 questions. So I’d be like, You know what, I don’t give a shit what we eat in the meeting, it is on you. But I don’t want to hear another thing about it. I trust you to go and do it. Since this is something you love to do. Right. And so you, I almost used to think about it, like picking people off. Like getting him out of my way. You know, like you got to do this, you go find the space, clear the space, right? But I think that if you can think about not just the fact that you’re conceding, but the point is important, because you’re doing it with intentionality. But really like what is going to be a huge payoff for the other person that comes from a deeper place of motivation, that doesn’t actually matter to you or the work? Give on that every single time.

Anne Candido 26:39
Yeah, and that just makes sure that you’re not just doing it in a way to just like placate them, but you have no intent of actually using it or leveraging it. So Oh, sure to make sure you’re not wasting their time and doing it. It’s not supposed to be a babysitting activity. But yes, I totally agree with you, Mike. It just doesn’t hurt. We might. When we get into our office dates, you know, we want everything to be a certain way. And you know, a lot of us got into our leadership roles, because we’ve been some level of OCD and controlling. But sometimes, you know, it’s just better overall, for the spirit of everybody involved to let some things go. Yes, exactly.

April Martini 27:18
All right. So just to recap, removing the barriers to getting good work. Number one, start every communication with the problem you’re trying to solve. Help those on the receiving end, reset and refocus. Number two, manage the egos according to their personality, you know, the hot buttons, be strategic and managing to your advantage. Number three, nominate the right person to deliver the work even if it is not you. Yes, we set it, take yourself out of the hot seat where needed. And number four, concede where there is opportunity to do so find ways to compromise where the quality of the work will not suffer as a result. And our next segment is in the trenches where we give real world examples specific to industries and situations but with broad application so that any of you listening can digest and put them immediately into action. Number one, I try all the things you say but to no avail. I feel like the CEO just comes in and takes over and everyone loses their voice. And then I feel like my efforts are wasted. And I’m not the only one help. Oh, okay. So, first, before you do anything else, and waste your energy, is there anyone in the organization that seems to manage the CEO? Well, it does not matter who that person is. Is there anyone? If the answer is yes, go to that person with the goal in mind of sussing out their quote unquote, secret sauce. Number one, it will stroke their ego. And number two, you will get the help you need. Now I say this with the caveat of as long as you believe that this person also comes from a place of wanting to get to the right work. They’re aware of the issues with the CEO, they tend to be a pretty self aware person, and they know what you’re going to be coming for. Right? Don’t go to someone who’s going to manipulate your ask into something for their benefit. So that’s the only caveat there. But the point here is work smarter, not harder. If there’s someone who just you see time and again manages this person really, really well go to them. My friend Gina is masterful at this. She is constantly working with the C suite and watching that woman get what she wants when she wants it out of these people is just it’s an art form. So anyway, if you have that person go to that person. If not, can you give the CEO role that not putting them right in the middle of your work in your project? So to Anne’s point, you know, well, you’re the CEO, come in and have this conversation. Before the meeting, introduce us, help us get to where we need to be going you know, set the stage for everything but really saying that you need them in a different place or a different way, then them just coming in and inserting themselves because this will allow you to be much more proactive, given the situation. And it will help them feel like they are quote unquote winning, because they have been given this ultra important role to play. Also, one of the things that I was just a huge fan of doing is before you end up in the situation where they come in, proactively set the stage for where you’re going to want them to be part of the process, and then orchestrate against that. So if your team really needs I don’t know, three days a week, whatever, to really get the work going and get it to somewhere good, then schedule 30 minutes a week from now with the CEO and say, Look, we really need to dig in, you’re so busy, you don’t want to be in the middle of this. And also, we need someone to evaluate from that higher level. So we’re gonna go work on this for a week. And then we’ve put time on your calendar. So you don’t have to give it a second thought, come in next Monday at three. And we’ll take you through what we have. If none of this truly works, and we’ve all been in organizations where that happens, it might be time for you to find a new role in a different organization. I hate to see this when it happens, especially if you’re an all star player in the role. But I also know how this can just be soul crushing. And so if you’re in an organization where none of these tactics work, it truly is where the CEO comes in and stomps on things, whatever he or she wants to. That is something where you’re gonna have to look at it within yourself and say, Am I still learning? Is there a path for me here? Am I still growing? Is there a reason to stay? Or is the inability to head him or her off at the past distracting to the point where I don’t even know what I’m getting done every day? Because I’m just dealing with this personality that might be a place where you want to start your exit strategy.

Anne Candido 31:53
Yeah, I think all that is really good advice. And I think at the root of that is really trying to understand what the motivation is of the CEO to be involved. Yep, I had a manager that was like that not a CEO, but no manager, so to speak, that always felt like she wanted to be a part of it, because she always felt like she had something valuable to add. And she was like, Well, I want to be able to do that in a in an environment where everybody’s there been. I mean, I don’t know about what you might take what I say. And it might be different, you know, or you might not say what I wanted to say it on? Oh, my God. I mean, who is the person who’s supposed to be the boss here? For god sakes? Right. So it’s an insecurity. But a lot of it is a control freak of nature, the fear of missing out the fear of not knowing what is going on. And so if somebody asks them later, and they don’t know, they look stupid, you know. So there’s lots of motivations for why like CEOs and managers specifically want to be in your business impostor syndrome, impostor syndrome. Yeah. So figure out what that is. And then strategically, try to see if you can hit it off in the past, like you suggested, by doing certain things that will placate them, or that will keep them involved or help them to be part of it without having to be disruptive. But what I’ve also learned in some cases, especially if you have like a very passionate boss, like a lot of times, bosses get promoted, and then you come in and take their role. That’s been like a big huge issue I know, at p&g, where you’re coming in, are you taking like, over somebody’s role, who now you know, they’re your boss, and they see how you’re doing the role? And they’re like, Well, I wouldn’t do it like that. I wouldn’t do it like that, you know, sometimes you just have to get to a point where you’re just like, you know, what, if you’re so like, having such a specific view of how you want to run this, I’m gonna give this to you, I’m gonna go do something else. And sometimes it’s hard to say, because you were actually like, brought in to do that exact role, but at least like forces a conversation of like, what Wait, what am i What’s going on here? Right. But I, there’s been times where we, me and my boss, were both assigned to doing the same work, and it felt like, like, huge overkill. And I’d be like, you know, what, if you really have a passion for this, why don’t you take it? Yeah, we all have other things we can do. Like we said, we had this, we all very busy. So we have other things to do. So sometimes, again, that could be like the conceding part of it’s like, you know, it just, it’s just not worth it. Right. But if you are super passionate about the work, then it does probably behoove you to have a conversation with your boss about the roles you can play. So you just have to decide for yourself. Yeah, no, I

April Martini 34:22
mean, I think those are all good points. And I do love the idea of what is the motivation behind it? Because sometimes I think that those people that are successful at cracking the code are the ones that take a step back and do that reexamination. And then think about, okay, I’m seeing this repeat behavior. I’m guessing that the motivation is this, therefore, I’m gonna go after that, instead of every time we’re in a situation trying to hit it off at the past that way.

Anne Candido 34:48
Yep. I think that’s really smart.

April Martini 34:51
All right, number two, I tend to be on the quieter side and there are a lot of loud voices. How do I navigate this? And

Anne Candido 34:58
yes, he was like we address this question. In almost every single episode, because seriously, yes, because it is so important to really get over this fear this. And so we, we try to address this in different circumstances. So you can see different ways to get different strategies and be able to put into practice in different contexts. So, bear with us if you think we have this conversation all the time. But it continues to be something that we are asked about a lot. So we notice continues to be something that’s on your minds a lot. But we’ve talked about the fact that even if you’re introverted, or you tend to be quiet, that is not an excuse for not engaging, right, your whole personal brand, your whole ability to show up and be able to demonstrate that you’re capable of moving up or you’re capable of getting more responsibility, you’re capable of moving the business. All of this is contingent on you being able to have a voice in important circumstances, whether it’s a meeting, whether it’s one on one with your boss, whether it’s one on one with a colleague, whether it’s in small group settings, whatever it looks like, it is very important for you to be able to have a voice here, that doesn’t mean that you have to be an authentic to yourself, and you have to act differently. But it does mean that you have to do some additional work in order to be able to have that voice until you have the competence to be able to interact in a way that is going to be more natural for you. So the one thing that we say that you absolutely have to do is you have to you have to be prepared. Alright, this means you need to spend a little bit more time ahead of meetings or engagements you’re going to have with people really thinking about what do you want to get out of this? What is your specific point of view or your thoughts? So you want to make sure communicated in these in an engagement in these interactions. And how do you want this person to feel as a result of engaging with you, which is really, really important. A lot of times we don’t think about how we want this person to feel. But it’s really important for you to be mindful of that because it’s going to be how your words are going to translate as April said is not just what you say is how you say it and your tone is gonna be very important, but also in the way that the impact is felt is going to be very, very important. Alright, so that will help you move your message a lot easier than just trying to say it. So think about how you’re going to say it what you’re going to say, and actually practice if you can. So sometimes you do it in front of the mirror, sometimes you do it with another person, sometimes you could do with your spouse or your partner, try to find some ways to be able to practice it, say it out loud, don’t just run it through in your head, it sounds totally different when it’s coming out of your mouth. And when it’s in your head. So make sure you actually say it. If you get into a space where you’re like, Okay, I know I’m going into maybe a bunch of like very egocentric personalities, or it’s gonna be very loud, it’s gonna be very action oriented, and that really intimidate you see if you can find somebody who can be an ally with you in the meeting. So somebody that can actually maybe throw it to you say, Hey, I have this thought and blah, blah, blah, but I know, you know, so and so has a thought to, why don’t you like share your thoughts, right, so maybe find somebody who can help you orchestrate your opportunity, so that you’re not trying to like speak up, if you feel like it’s really hard for you in order to speak up in those places. Maybe two, and this is like, totally, this is totally the advanced course. But it can totally help is like make yourself the facilitator the presenter, right, so you get to dictate the actual agenda in the meeting and how the the conversation flows, that automatically gives you the clout the respect of being the person that they’re supposed to listen to, so it then it doesn’t feel as intrusive or disruptive. And it doesn’t feel as unnatural to have to speak up and, and provide your thoughts. Now, a lot of you introverts are probably you gotta be freaking kidding. So again, I would start small, you know, in a small setting in a small meeting, where you may call something that you feel very competent about that you can start facilitating that, once you start doing it once you start building that competence. And we see that very, very often with folks who feel very shy about their qualifications and or their confidence and being a voice in the room. But whatever you do, and how I started, do not opt out. You can’t opt out, if you want to progress within your career and within the business. You have to have a point of view, you have to have a personality, a brand character that people are going to be able to relate to because that is as important to your progression is actually what you’re doing. So for people who say, Oh, I’m just gonna let the work speak for itself. No, the work doesn’t speak for itself. You speak for the work and that’s what people actually hear.

April Martini 39:43
Yeah, and I think too. Number one, standing up in front of people, right, is something that everyone has to learn to do serve assembly. Yes, right. Everybody has to figure out a way that they can present to a room I don’t care who you are. or what your role is, there are very few jobs where you don’t have to face that at some point if you want to progress in your career. But the other thing I will say, and we’ve talked a lot about tone and and just mentioned it again, you don’t have to do it the way that everybody else does it correct. And I think what happens is, and this is why I hate this as sort of a quote, unquote cop out is that people will say, Well, I’m quieter. And so I don’t want to do that. And it just ends there. But I think the point of some of the ideas that and set up for you is, examine it from all angles and find things that you are comfortable with. So to the point about becoming the facilitator, that does sound like to someone who is an introvert and doesn’t want to speak up a painful thing. But I’ve also seen super introverted people be really good at it, because it provides a structure and a format for them to work within. And it also assigned them a quote unquote, personality, so that they don’t have to think so much about, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, it’s like, I’m gonna go play this role. And then it oriented differently in their brain, right? Or, you know, to the point of, well, facilitation again, you also don’t have to be the person that talks the most to be the leader in the room. So if you’re facilitating and I’ve also seen some people that don’t like to speak in front of rooms be really good at pulling things out of other people. So their skill is okay, I’m going to let that person go. And then I’m gonna sit there for a minute and digest and I’m gonna feed something back and people are gonna be like, That’s brilliant. So you have to figure out what does it look like for you, like Ian said, you absolutely cannot opt out. But what I’ve seen is people just say, I don’t like that and strongarm it and never revisited it again, and the door closes, and they’re just, there’s just paralysis. So anytime it even comes up, it’s like, no, I’m not going to do that, when actually, my opinion is, most people, regardless of introvert or extrovert, or whatever, can find a way to be successful if they work to find their own style and their own place where they feel like they fit really, really well soon. All right, third, and final in the trenches. How do you at fourth rate, people deal with what we’re talking about here? Putting us in the hot seat like? So the first thing I will say is we very actively stay on top of this, really we do, we just gave you the example of the client and me being in the hot seat. And you know, leaving that conversation, we had to really, we had two subsequent conversations that happened on the heels of each other within, you know, minutes and then hours, the situation where we were like, Okay, this is not working, what is going to be our solution to this, and came up with the idea that maybe and who has been perceived as more of a good guy might have more success in this situation? Right? So I’m not well, yeah, and and maybe, and we might have to take turns Yeah, really, realistically with this one. But we’ll see. We also refuse to work with jerks anymore. We won’t work with people that don’t want our help. Yeah, we have the luxury of this, because we have our own business, and you might not be in the same position. But there were plenty of times in the agency where someone raised their hand and said, I can’t do this anymore. I feel like I’m fighting an uphill battle, I’m losing every time I’m losing my competence as a result, or I as the manager would identify like, this client just has it out for this person. For whatever reason, let’s swap. Let’s mix it up. Let’s swap it out. Let’s have someone else come in. You would be amazed at how often organizations are receptive to this. I think the inclination is that, oh, I’m gonna look like I’m weak, if I raise my hand for that, but actually, I see the opposite happen, which is, wow, that person stood up and I might not have done that, right. And now they’ve gotten themselves out of the situation. That’s pretty amazing. I mean, we have a client right now that we just started working with and we’ve been doing one on one interviews for the past week. And I had two different instances where people said, you know, the organization one organization recognized that I was struggling but I had a good track record. And so they identified on my behalf that this probably wasn’t a good fit. On the other side it was this was a notoriously tough account. So I raised my hand and said, Look, I’ve been on this a year can we find me another spot and both people are still there obviously because I was talking to them. So there is opportunity for that. We also have really direct conversations. So I gave the example of the the client from earlier today in the passive aggressive nature and and I were coaching someone last night after a very long day, and helping them through a difficult situation. But the thing that I think

we do really well to toot our own horn I will just say this is we are so hyper direct with each other that we never let a motion even get close to entering and we III respect each other enough to know that when the other person is bringing something up, it’s coming from a place of respect and with the intent of getting to the best possible work in the smartest, fastest way possible. And so we just take that lens into every single conversation with each other. I can’t remember a time since I’ve gotten to know and well, at least where I had to bring something up, and I had any sort of nervous feeling about it. I know that, you know, a lot of times the feedback we get when we have these conversations with clients is like, Yeah, but it’s just the two of you. And so it’s so much easier. And I’m like, well, actually, I would say that’s not true, because I’ve seen a lot of partnerships become really contentious when it is just the two of them. Or even if it’s part of a bigger organization, because these conversations aren’t had on a regular basis, and the discipline does not surround them. And so if you are listening, and you feel like, okay, you know, I’m in this organization, I’m in this mess to the point of the conversation we had last night. What are the ways that you can stop the narrative that is currently going on in your organization? What level of influence do you believe that you can realistically have? And how are you going to raise your hand and be the person that starts the change that needs to happen? caveat is tone, again, make sure that you identify the appropriate tone, and go in to the conversation with whatever is going to be the most helpful for that, of course, but don’t just sit back and do the woe is me, Oh, this sucks, there’s always a way out of it, even if that way ends up being you know, what, I’ve tried to stand up for myself and whatever. And I’m now at the point where back to the CEO point, you know, this isn’t going to work for me, at least you’re in control of your career path, and the things that you are going and doing. And I think that that is what keeps us focused at fourth rate people is and and I really just want to do great work, you both get fulfillment out of doing great work, and helping our clients and their businesses be better. That’s it. And so if that is the thing that we constantly come back to, and we built the discipline around that, and we always have that narrative in our head, then we have success when we have these types of conversations, and we make decisions so fast, because that is the vetting criteria,

Anne Candido 47:16
I couldn’t agree more, that was going to re emphasize the point that it really is about doing great work, that it doesn’t mean that sometimes our egos don’t kind of Whoa, pop up. I mean, I, there’s times where you know, I’m like, Oh, I wish I could just send this to the client, but I’m gonna have to get April’s feedback. And I know, when she gets to your feedback, it’ll be better. But I really just wish I could get done with it, and I could send it, and then I send it to her and she looks at it and it comes back. I’m like, dammit, it was better. You know, so I make you have to sometimes can see, again, we didn’t afford a lot today that you know, somebody has a different perspective that can actually make you better. And sometimes it’s very hard for people, especially somebody who, like we both are alpha females, you tend to get a lot of pride out of the fact that we’re really good at what we do. But when you can find somebody who actually makes you better that is like gold. And when you can acknowledge and you let that person in. And they actually you actually can accept it and you can actually embrace it that even is more gold, that’s probably the Platinum, right. And that’s what in makes the relationship and the partnership work is that we lean into each other as sources of feedback, yes, information, insight, seeing it from a different point of view. Now we’re it’s still up to us as individuals to accept that or not like that is the thing is we never go in with the expectation that something needs to change if I own the work or APR owns the work. And that’s why the trust is there. You know, and so I know APR can do good work, I’m like, I’m not worried about looking at her work to make sure it’s good work. Same vice versa. She knows I could do good work, and she’s not looking over my shoulder. But we also know that we each other has strengths. And we draw upon that and respect that. Right? And so that is what’s important to overcome it and when you can find your clients are like, This is amazing. This is fantastic. You know, you still kind of like, Yeah, I did that. Or you know, but like we’d but then you kind of get to the point where it’s like put, you know, we did that, you know, and so it becomes something that’s bigger, that can be celebrated together. And it becomes more of like a strategic decision. And I say this because we just both put in applications to be a speaker at an event. We know they’re only going to probably take one of us if they take either of us, right? But we could have said well, we’re just gonna go in together and we’re gonna go all out. We’re like, No, we’re going to double down on our efforts. Because I don’t care if I speak. I don’t care if April speaks. I just want one of us to get this because if one of us gets to speak, it looks good with regards to the business, right? So think about those things of where you know, you might be getting in your own way. Because that is probably more about you When it is about anything else, and it’s not easy, it’s not always easy, it takes some time. But if you can develop that respect for you, the people that are around you, even if you don’t like them now, I happen to really, really like April. So it’s not, that’s not the case here. But you don’t have to like them in order to respect them in order to be able to leverage them in their expertise and their insight and their feedback in order to make you better. And if that feels like a little bit like a selfish motivation, so be it. I mean, but it is all about the, again, the overarching desire to be better as in yourself and deliver really good work, because that’s really what lifts all boats. Right. So that’s what I have to say about them.

April Martini 50:42
Yeah, and I think just a personal comment on all of that is, I think, sometimes if you are a stronger personality, or if you just are one of those people that’s known for blocking and tackling and moving things along and being productive. And you know, the more you give you, the better you are, you get in this place of, I must have all the answers. And as much as I have worked really hard in my partnership with and to let go of that tendency within myself. There are still times where I find myself and after, you know, 15 year career, you can see how it happened. And then two years on my own where I was making decisions and calls, I catch myself still in certain points where I’m like, why am I doing that? And then, you know, and it’s a good thing too, because they will call me on it and say, I know you’re just doing it, because this is the way you are built and the way your experiences have been, I actually really like to fill in the blank, right brand stories, run work sessions, right? These different things that historically number one I really did enjoy at certain points in my career. But at this point, it’s just not where I get my joy. And number two, I’m finding that I can give more valuable feedback if and takes the first run at some of these things versus forcing myself to do something that I’m not inspired by anymore. And so that’s what I mean about building discipline and consistency, but then also kind of pressure testing the systems that you’ve built on a regular basis, we are very actively participating in our business at all times, right. And it’s a really good point to evaluate each other the way we’re working what’s on each of our plates, when one of us needs more breathing room than the other. And there’s never any judgment about any of it. It’s just again, back to the point of the episode to get the best work we possibly can to our clients between us and everybody else we have supporting us. Yeah, I think that’s right on. All right. And with that our third and final segment, a brand that is doing things well or not so well in the marketing space based on recent observations. And mine is going to be a little bit of both today. So my brand is Kroger Home Chef. And like I said, I’m going to give some mixed reviews here. Oh, interesting. This will be interesting for me, because I’ve been wondering, so my husband Bryce and I have been through our fair share of meal delivery kits over the years before we had children. And when it was just us, and we were trying, well, I was trying really hard not to have Bryce by the entire grocery store and throw away you know, the extra vegetables, et cetera, et cetera, and make way more than two people needed to eat. We entered into this world also, I am a notoriously terrible cook. So I thought that maybe we could bond over this kit where I could follow the step by step instructions and be good at it. So we did live in that world and had a good amount of experience with various ones, and learn to like some and not others and kind of made our way through that whole landscape. Well, now several years have passed and during COVID, I’ve talked before about how I got my back myself back into the space of cooking probably out of sheer boredom, but trying my hand at getting better in the kitchen. And now that the world has opened back up that has been severely de prioritized in my life. But I’ve realized that I it did build a practice in me where I like us to have two home cooked meals a week. And our kids are not really at a point where they want to eat what we’re eating. And I’m at a point where I’m too tired to have the fight and if they want to eat macaroni and cheese seven days a week, I don’t care right now because some days they don’t want to eat anything so and so whatever they will eat, you know, we are nothing if not forced, right? They are eating right now because I just can’t deal with another fight. So all of that to say this Kroger home chef option entered the marketplace. And it took me a little while at first to really which is pathetic to say because I’m a CPG whiz I feel like or I’ve been forced into it with all the years in CPG. And I love branding as I talk all the time. But I kind of ignored this section of the store and what I remember at least when it first came out was it was more like TV dinners on steroids right where you would pick it up and you’d stick it in the oven and warm it and it was ready to go. And to me that’s not a home cooked meal if I’m Gonna go that route, I’m gonna go frozen pizza or we’re going to order something like I just done like that isn’t worth it all the salts like it just you know, it brings back TV dinners in my head. Well, I don’t even remember at what point but within the past call it year

as the world of makeup, like I said, and we had more on our plates and we were starting to socialize again. And I realized that I wanted to have home cooked meals two days a week, but I didn’t want to waste a bunch of stuff. And I didn’t have to think about it, I approached this section of the grocery store. And so now I’ve realized over time that there are kind of three different tiers of these kits, so you have still the stick it in the oven and heat it up, do not recommend, it’s not good, the flavors are kind of off, it tastes a little mushy, everything kind of tastes like the other thing, even if you buy the sides and you’re just you know, you do like a side and then the main thing, not good, I would say don’t do that I know. But then below that, there are two additional options. And I like both of them. And we consistently use both of them. So one is a one pan meal. And what that means is you get the silver container that it comes in. And it’s a vegetable, you know, potato, whatever if some kind and then whatever your main protein or dish is. And so what that looks like is you’re still doing like the chopping and the mixing and the seasoning and the whatever the vegetables usually go in for a longer period of time you prep, whatever the protein is, you put that back in the pan, it all cooks together and finishes out. And it’s pretty good. There are some that are hit or miss you know, but the one that I really love, if I’m willing to put in the investment is home chef meal kit. So this comes in a brown paper box, I’ve seen those. And here, where is the one pan that gives you the pan yourself, you’re only using a cutting board and chopping stuff. And it’s it’s good, right? The Home Chef Meal Kit, it’s definitely more of an investment, there’s more chopping, you have to use your own pans, you’re doing a lot of it on the stove, there’s a few different pots. But I will say that overall, for two adults during the week, where I don’t want to think about it, I can go to the store on Monday, I can grab two of these kits. Depending on what time I think I’m gonna have, I would prefer the home chef meal kit, but I will do the oven kit, if I feel like we’re not going to have a lot of time, those have really become our go to. The other thing I will say is that, at first I was like choking on the fact that I think the oven one is $17.99. And the other one is $18.99 or $19.99. And I was like damn, that feels like home for the dinner. But then when I think about if I was actually going to cook that, or any semblance of that myself go out and get it or go out and get it or ordered in or whatever. I would spend at least twice that much or if not more. So in any case, I think that the brand has done a really nice job of bridging need and desire state for different types of consumers and addressing that with three different options. Interestingly, there was a single gentleman at the case with me the one day and actually we talked because he was complaining that they had forgotten to put the expiration dates. And of course, I was like no, no, they’re on there. And then I pick it up and I’m like, You’re right, they’re not on there. But he was just doing the heat ones, right. And I could tell like, Oh, he’s getting off work. He was grabbing, you know, these and those are fine for him. Whereas for me it was more about No, no, I wanted to be more home cooked. And I want to be more involved in it. But then I to have these kind of two different tiers. And I think it’s really smart to when I think about how food costs are going up. And when I think about that kit, while at first I said it felt really expensive. Now I’m like to feed me and Bryce for 20 bucks feels really inexpensive. And I don’t feel like I’m sacrificing that healthy home cooked meal. Like is it the healthiest thing we could have? No, but we’re having a meat in some kind of vegetable. I don’t have to think about it. I don’t have to prep recipes. We don’t have to have the conversation of what do you want for dinner tonight. Like it just checks so many boxes on my list in addition to the cost now that I just feel like it’s become a slam dunk. And then they also do back to my beginning point. They do delivery kits as well. And so I’m seeing like, they’ll either have a promotion, or I’ll get those printed out coupons or something like try this and we’ll give you $10 off your first delivery. So they are trying to move people into that more quote unquote expensive model right where you pay $60, but it’s dropped off at your door and it’s ready to go and you don’t have to go to the store. So that’s my synopsis. Well, that

Anne Candido 59:36
was really quite fascinating to be totally honest. Because I’ve looked at them and I’ve contemplated them and you know, my husband Tony is more of the cook but we do get in the rut of like, What were you gonna make tonight and what’s everybody getting yelled in, then you kind of find you’re just making the same things over and over. And so it’s a really easy way to try something without having to go through all of the rigmarole of like, Okay, well I’m going to They’ll look for recipes. Is that recipe going to be hard? Is a recipe going to be easy? Can I have to find all the ingredients? Oh my god, they have everything but they don’t have this one Nick ingredient is here. Can I substitute ingredient? Can I not? If you’re not an involved Cook, and you don’t really like to do it, but you like variety? I seems like it’s a really nice solution. Can I agree the price if you consider how much of a cost to do? I mean, even just ordering like or getting like a steak, you know, like even to buy a steak in me and Tony will get a steak and we’ll split it. It’s like $20 for a good steak. Right? You know? So, I mean, it feels very reasonable. It might be definitely something my try. I just I can’t I just I don’t like any level of prep for Dash is my best friend. But I can see how it can fit in the in between. And it definitely is something that would I like you said hit the need states for a lot of different people in where they are in their ability to be a cook or their time that they have in order to go do it. Yeah. And just a desire of wanting to go do it. So so it was really fascinating. Yeah, it makes me want to try it. Yeah. And

April Martini 1:01:07
I mean the variety thing too, because I’m with you, like if I would just then buy plain chicken and green beans, right? And that would be what we would cook and that’s annoying. Whereas now I’m like, Oh, I don’t you know and I even tried to sun dried tomato sauce the other day that I which I know is way with you know outside of my wheelhouse. But in any case, any case. There you go. Wow. All right, so just to recap, removing the barriers to getting good work start every communication with the problem we’re trying to solve help those on the receiving end, reset and refocus. Number two manage the egos according to their personality. You know the hot buttons be strategic and managing to your advantage. nominate the right person to deliver the work even if it is not you. Yes, we said it. Take yourself out of the hot seat. And finally, number four concede where there’s opportunity to do so find ways to compromise where the quality of the work will not suffer. And with that we will say go and exercise your Marketing Smarts! Still need help in growing your Marketing Smarts? Contact us through our website: We can help you become a savvy marketer through coaching or training you and your team or doing the work on your behalf. Please also help us grow the podcast by rating and reviewing on your player of choice and sharing with at least one person. Now go show off your Marketing Smarts!