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Classics: Being a Woman in Business: Everything We Wish Someone Would Have Told Us: Show Notes & Transcript

Post | Mar 26, 2024

Welcome back to Marketing Smarts! From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini (that’s us) comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. We deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from our combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. We tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

In this episode, we’re talking everything we wish someone would’ve told us as women in business. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re exercising your Marketing Smarts!

  • Episode Summary & Player
  • Show Notes
  • Marketing Smarts Summary
  • Transcript

Marketing Smarts: Classics: Being a Woman in Business: Everything We Wish Someone Would Have Told Us

Our ultimate goal in doing this episode is to shine a light on the realities of being a woman in business, so women can approach their careers and lives with their eyes wide open. Many of these realities are highly controversial, so they are rarely talked about…especially within the walls of a company. Which means sometimes we don’t know we are losing the game until it is too late. And yes, it is a game we all must become competent players in to achieve our goals. But the one thing we will say over and over is you need to do you. Stick to your truth, but do so with awareness. In this episode, we focus on sharing the things we wish people would have shared with us as we navigated our careers and built our personal brands. This episode covers everything from the reality of being a woman in business to controversial topics. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

  • What do we wish someone would’ve told us as women in business?
  • How much time should you take off when you have a baby?
  • Why are you not getting promoted?
  • What should you do if others say you’re not qualified?
  • How do you get men to respect you as a woman in a male-dominated field?
  • Should you have a female mentor?
  • What’s the benefit of a strong support system?
  • Do you have to work twice as hard?

And as always, if you need help in building your Marketing Smarts, don’t hesitate to reach out to us at:

Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below:

Show Notes

  • Classics: Being a Woman in Business: Everything We Wish Someone Would Have Told Us
    • [0:00] Welcome to Marketing Smarts
    • [0:29] Anne Candido, April Martini
    • [0:33] Learn more at
    • [0:35] What do we wish someone would’ve told us as women in business?
    • [1:19] Changing your name can impact your legacy
    • [2:53] P&G (Procter & Gamble)
    • [6:28] Facebook
    • [8:12] Characteristics seen as strengths in men can be seen as liabilities in women
    • [12:08] Creative Review
    • [14:00] Midwest Nice
    • [14:43] You are a trailblazer – still today
    • [19:28] It’s a zero-sum alpha-female game
    • [21:46] LinkedIn
    • [26:13] We’d like to invite you to join ForthRight Women: The Cohort. This community is for females who are ambitious in their careers, but want an equally fulfilling personal life. For more information and to join the group, check out
    • In-the-Trenches
    • [27:24] How much time should I take off when I have a baby?
    • [33:01] Dr. Phil
    • [34:52] I’m doing great work, but not getting promoted. What is going on?
    • [38:07] Personal Brand
    • [41:11] I recently got promoted, but have heard others say I’m not qualified. How do I handle this?
    • [43:59] How do I get men to respect me as a woman in a male-dominated field?
    • [48:38] MBA (Masters of Business Administration)
    • [50:37] CEO (Chief Executive Officer)
    • [52:15] I feel like I have to work twice as hard as my male co-workers and I’m not getting anywhere. What should I do?
    • [56:49] Is it important to have a female mentor, or should I have a male mentor?
    • [59:42] Is it better to have a strong support system?
    • Marketing Smarts Moments
    • [1:03:58] Make sure to follow Marketing Smarts on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
    • [1:04:04] Learn more at and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn
    • [1:04:15] Sign up to view all the ForthRight worksheets & tips for FREE!
    • [1:04:18] Shop our Virtual Consultancy

What is Marketing Smarts?

From brand-building and marketing veterans Anne Candido and April Martini comes a podcast committed to cutting through all the confusing marketing BS so you can actually understand how to take action and change your business today. They deep-dive into topics most would gloss-over, infusing real-world examples from their combined 35+ years of corporate and agency experience. They tell it how it is so whether you are just starting out or have been in business awhile, you have the Marketing Smarts to immediately impact your business.

How do I exercise my Marketing Smarts?

Thanks for listening to Marketing Smarts. Get in touch here to become a savvier marketer. 


Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Anne Candido 0:02
This is Marketing Smarts – a podcast committed to helping you become a savvier marketing leader, no matter your level. In each episode, we will dive into a relevant topic or challenge that marketing leaders are currently facing. We will also give you practical tools and applications that will help you put what you learn into practice today. And if you miss anything, don’t worry, we put worksheets on our website that summarize the key points. Now, let’s get to it. Welcome to Marketing Smarts. I’m Anne Candido, and I am April Martini. And today’s another Marketing Smarts: Classics: Being a woman in business, everything we wish someone would have told us. Hindsight is often referred to as 20/20. And in doing this episode, April and I were committed to shining a light on everything we face as women in our careers and in many instances are still faced with today. This episode strives to empower all of us women to rise and is it a personal area of passion for us as we build our community, forthright women, we believe that as we pave the path boy, we should all try to make it a little easier for those women that will come after us. And that this is one way we can uplift all of our fellow women, there needs to be more of us at the top of organizations leading the charge and building into community and thus, the reason for relaunching this episode. So let’s get to it. And if you’re on a woman, that’s okay, we think you’ll still find this conversation insightful as you probably work with women.

April Martini 1:21
And we do want to caveat this by saying to all the women out there, you need to do you, right, so we’re going to address some controversial topics. And our perspective, quite frankly, at times might not be yours. But ultimately, we fully support everyone doing what is right for them. As the caveat before we get into the actual conversation,

Anne Candido 1:42
we do want you ultimately to really go into your careers with eyes wide open understanding how the game was played, and become a better player of it. But it’s also for all of you who support women who are in business to just to get a little bit of a better understanding about their lens and their perspective that they might be. You’re looking through, as well as what might be at play for them just to have a little bit more empathy and maybe help them address some of these challenges. So with that, we are going to jump in to everything we wish someone would have told us about being women in business, and these are our top four. So here we go. The first thing is changing your name can impact your legacy. And I will start this one because me and April actually have a different stories on this topic, but we’re going to give you both of ours. But for me, I went into my career as Anne Candido. About four or five years into my career. I got married I was Anne Westbrook. Another 10 years later, I was divorced. I was back to Anne Candido. And that’s how I finished out my career at P&G, and now I’ve been Anne Candido, even though I’m remarried again. And what I can tell you, especially after your 20 year career at P&G was that there was a lot of discontinuity in how people remembered me, which makes it hard to build a reputation frankly, and hard to continue to maintain credentialing and credibility in your space. I mean, to the extent that I actually for a whole year when I got married, I would say, you know, Anne Candido or formerly Westbrook when I was divorced, as does on the other side, and then on the front side, it was and Westbrook, formally Candido, just to kind of try to build some of that continuity. So it’s, it can be very difficult in order for people to connect the dots. Another story was when I was in a meeting in a business meeting, and I was speaking about actually one of our executive or female executives, and I was speaking about her and her married name, and she had just gotten married. And they said, Who is that? And I said, Oh, well, then I give the her maiden name, or like, Oh, now I know who you’re talking about. And he actually said to me, that’s such a shame that nobody knows who she is anymore. And we say this because it is real. There is a legacy in a legacy path that has a name stretched through it. And men don’t necessarily understand that because they don’t generally consider changing their name. So it’s definitely something you want to consider as you think about your career and where you are in your career and what that means to you. April, maybe want to share your story too, because you took a little bit of a different path.

April Martini 4:25
Yes, exactly. So I’m April martini, and I am married. And I’m still April Martini. So I’ve never actually changed my name to Ellis, which is my husband’s last name. And so for me, I mean, by the time we got married, I was first sevenish years into my career, had worked at a few different agencies felt like I had built a pretty strong reputation for myself in the different roles that I was playing. And then not to mention, I mean, my name is April Martini in the branding world. I mean, come on, like I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had over the years have due to probably around my name. But the interesting thing was is, of course, I had people support like, well done no brainer, I wouldn’t change my name either. But then there were others that thought I was taking some like big feminist stance. And I was like, Well, no, actually, it’s a very practical reason I’ve started my career, my name stands out in the type of career I’m in, therefore, I kept my name. And that’s pretty much it. Now two people sees my husband and say, like, Oh, why don’t you just change it to Martini? Yes, yes, yes. All those things, too. But I think the point of it was just, like, sort of the, the expectation of the reason that I had done it, when really it was just like, No, it actually makes good practical sense.

Anne Candido 5:42
Yeah, and I think if you haven’t changed your name, you should understand it, it actually takes about a year to do so that was the other thing. It’s not Yeah, it’s not easy to carry around your your either your divorce decree or your marriage certificate for at least a year, until you are able to find all the things that your name is associated with, that you actually have to go through and change. And, you know, I like we said, you got to do you, if this is something you feel really passionate about, then you should change your name. And you can deal with that. Like I said, I had a if my salutation and my email for like, at least a year, what my former name was, on Facebook, I moved my former name to the middle name slot. I mean, there’s an in um, you can hyphenate your name. I mean, a lot of people did that. I’ve actually had several colleagues who use their maiden name in work and your married name out in public, that creates actually a lot of identity issues, to be totally honest, both formally and informally, but it’s definitely an option. And both me and April have kids who are last names are different. It’s something that you can get over. And you learn how to deal with and people who know you and the people who matter will associate you with your kids. So it’s it. There’s, you know, pluses and minuses either way, but I think the point that we wanted to make here is that you really need to consider how important your legacy is, and how hard you want to bite in order for that continuity to maintain itself. So that you’re not reinventing yourself. Every time you would change your name, hopefully would only be once but you just never know. Well,

April Martini 7:16
I think that’s a really good point. Because I would say that when I was getting married, you know, I had made the decision, like we said, not to change my name. But I don’t think I even had the complete picture of what I would need to manage if I had changed my name. Or if I didn’t. So for example, we didn’t even know if you’re going to have kids when we got married, right? Well, then I didn’t change my name. And then it was like, Well, are you going to change your name once we have kids, and I didn’t do that. So like Ian said, My kids have different names, you wouldn’t believe the amount of issues that that actually does cause me even though their middle names are Martini, it’s so there are issues on all sides. I think the point of the conversation we want to have today is you know, we’re telling you stuff we wish people would have educated us on and looking back, we now see a much bigger picture about the decisions being made. So I would just offer that caveat in this particular instance, but throughout the episode.

Anne Candido 8:09
Yep. All right. The second thing we wish somebody would have told us about being a woman in business is that characteristics that are seen as strengths and men can be seen as liabilities and women.

April Martini 8:22
Yeah, and this one gets a little touchy, everyone. So you know, I will offer that statement upfront. There’s definitely a catch-22 here. So being bold, direct, decisive, you know, those are characteristics that males are praised for. Sometimes people females are also praised for them. Sometimes they’re not. And they’re called things that are not so positive, as a result of those behaviors or looked at as being tough to work with, or, you know, always having too much of an opinion, those types of things. Whereas on the other side, if women act according to societal historical norms, we’d like to say of being gentle or nurturing or accommodating, then you can be perceived as weak or wishy washy or lacking any sort of strength of perspective. So this got Anna and me into a very strong conversation about what are the right qualities to have. And so, as we look back on our careers, we feel like women that are what we call empathetic action takers, meaning they’re not afraid to push stuff through to work hard, but they consider people along the way when they are doing so, and have the ability to bring people together, make sure everyone feels heard. They have a confidence but through a professional demeanor. That is what we’ve seen at least kind of toe the line on both sides and lead to success for women in business. Now, that is one example of how it can work right. So we said You have to do you and we hold to that very firmly. I mean, I will tell you right now that I was very stubborn, strong willed, but I’m still extraordinarily direct. But early on in my career, I mean, I got a good amount of feedback that actually over time, I didn’t want to hear it then. But I found to be fair of, if I took a more collaborative approach, if I didn’t leave people in the dust, if I worked hard to bring people along, even though I might be ahead, all of that was good feedback. But I’d be lying if I didn’t say some of it came through this lens that we’re talking about here, where I felt I was given feedback based on my gender instead of performance all the time. So again, just another, you know, indicator here of what can happen. And I think the tough part too, is that I was raised by a very strong woman who never talked to me about, you know, men, women, whatever it was much more of like you are a person, you speak your mind, I don’t care what age you are, you are to be respected, you need to respect others. And so that is the perspective that I took into business with me. But again, then I was having to kind of pave my own way and learn these things as I went based on situations that were occurring in the organizations I was in and in a pretty heavily male dominated field, quite frankly, in the agency world. I mean, it’s changing now, of course, but a lot of the senior leadership was male. Yeah.

Anne Candido 11:30
And I think we all have stories, especially if you’re going to be more on the alpha female side of it, where it feels like in order to compete against man, you actually have to act like one. And we’re here to say, we’ve tried that it doesn’t work, it tends to have the opposite effect. And that’s why, you know, we really stressed the empathetic action taker is a leadership approach. And I’ll give you an example of what that looks like. So again, the same person who I was mentioning before one of our executive marketing directors, and we would sit in a creative review. And in order to keep everything on track, which, if you heard me in April, talk about the corporate agency dynamics before you say those things can drown on forever. But in order to keep everybody on track, what she would everybody do, who was sitting in the room, it didn’t matter what level you’re at. She said, Okay, I want to hear what everybody has to say. But here’s the things you can give me, yes or no, you give me one reason why. And that’s it. She’s like, I don’t want to have, you know, you don’t have to sit there, you know, and give me the whole full like story. Like, just give me the one reason why, like your big reason why. And we did that. And everybody went through and it was about, I would say 15 of us in that review your view, and she’s out there, and she listened to us. Okay, I’ve heard all of you like a judge. Yeah. And I’ve like I’ve learned, I’ve listened to everything that you guys have to say, you guys all gave me your point of view, this is a decision I’m making and why. And that’s what we went forward with. Now, not everybody liked the decision. But everybody at least felt good about the fact that they were one herd into a decision was made. Because I think that’s the other trap that we sometimes get into as, as women in that we want to be overly empathetic and making sure that everything is considered and you have time to process and is everybody knows how whose feelings are gonna be heard that we don’t make the decisions. And that’s where the the other side of it kind of comes into play. So that’s one example of an empathetic action taker, someone who listens to everybody, but then is using that input in order to make a decision to make a decision quickly and move. Yeah,

April Martini 13:34
I think that’s, that’s super important, right? Because I feel like the facilitation that happens in those moments, is so valuable, and so rare. And so I mean, you know, we’re talking about women here today. But we’ve also talked about the idea of Midwest nice, you know, we’re in Cincinnati, and not wanting to hurt people’s feelings in business and how detrimental not being able to give that feedback is, but I think in this instance, it’s a matter of really hearing what people have to say, respectful of all the opinions but very diplomatic in the approach. And when you can cultivate that and make that the expectation, then I think it becomes much easier to get and keep everybody on board. So like you heard and say everyone may not have liked the decision that was come to, but they could all respect it because they understood the approach and the mindset and the thought, and they were heard as part of it. Yep, yep.

Anne Candido 14:34
All right. The third thing that we wish somebody would have told us as women in business, is that you are a trailblazer still today, and this is a big one, and we see it all around us. But it’s hard to believe that it’s only been 100 years since women are given the right to vote. I mean, that’s like the timeframe that we’re talking about here, guys. So that’s it. to like people like that are still living today know what it’s like to have people who are they related to that weren’t able to vote like their mom or their grandma. And it seems absurd to think about that. But it does ground us in the fact that we are still in a place that we’re trailblazing. And whether you, you know, you’re you’re part of an actual, like mission or movement in order to do that, or you’re just in a situation that requires it. It’s something that you got to take on in order to continue to progress, women in business as well as, you know, the your own personal journey. And I think, you know, it’s important to say that, yeah, there I mean, there’s biases out there, there’s double standards out there, there’s inequality that’s still out there, this outdated systems, all of that is true, we’ve talked about several more, we’re going to talk about several of them going forward here. But you really have two choices, I mean, you can rise to the occasion, or you can choose to crumble under the injustice of it all. And those are really your only two choices. Now, that doesn’t mean you necessarily go on a crusade. But it does mean that you have to deal with it. And then again, play the game in order to be able to rise above it, get to fix everything in your path. No, you don’t necessarily have to fix everything in your path. But you have to recognize what’s happening and get over the fact that it’s not fair, it shouldn’t be like this, all those excuses that we give ourselves as to why we feel held back, because that’s not going to do us any good. We all have to commit to progress, we all have to like be in this together in order to continue the movement forward, in order for this change to happen. Like because sometimes it’s going to happen, it could happen right away, sometimes it’s going to take a little longer. And it can be actually very lonely. And I wish somebody would have told me that as I was going through it that yeah, it can be very lonely, because you could be one of the only ones Yeah, you could be the first one. You know, we’re having a lot of weight, you know, first and last year. And that could be very difficult. But, you know, I kind of look back. And you know, my mom and my aunt and my grandma, and you know, some of the things they had to go through. Like my mom tells a story about how when she was working at the bank, her and my aunt had a work towards letting women have their own credit cards, crazy. I mean, and that’s not that long ago, guys. I mean, not that long ago at all, that women weren’t even allowed to have their own credit cards. And I’ll tell you, that would be detrimental to me right now. Because then my husband would know how much I spend on wine. So I mean, I think it’s like it’s just our turn. And I think that’s the whole trailblazing thing is like you have to carry the torch, you have to push it forward, whatever it is in the way that you define it. But we can’t continue to you know, we can’t whine about it. We can’t, you know, we can’t just like I said, crumble under the injustice of it all, or we’ll never continue to progress everything forward.

April Martini 17:50
Yeah, and, uh, you know, if you know anything about again, and me, it’s that we’re doers, right? Like we take action, we stand behind what we believe in, but we make sure that that’s represented kind of across the board. And I would say that, that applies exactly in this situation. So it’s okay, if something happens if you feel bad, and you need a little time to recover, or, you know, you have to try a few different things before you find what works. That’s not what we’re saying here. But what we are saying is, again, we’re shedding light on situations that are still out there that are hard for people to talk to on one side, or the only thing people talk to on the other side. And so this is meant to really help make sure that everyone feels empowered, like and said, no matter what situation they’re in, or how strong of a stance they want to take to feel like they’re able to own, manage and change their situation toward the positive side of things. And so this one, I think is is really important, because like Anne said, I mean, I can’t believe like when she said it’s only been 100 years, and I feel bad that I was like, wait, what I had to think about it, but me literally 100 years. And so to think about an entire society, flipping and doing a complete one ad it’s just not possible. I mean, history has shown us that time and again, right. So I think it’s just really important to remember, we all want to be able to live the realities we want to live and feel like we’re making the difference we want to make.

Anne Candido 19:22
Yeah, I think that’s really, really important. I think that’s really well said, All right, the first thing that we wish somebody would have told us about being women in business is about the zero sum alpha female game. Yeah, we want to start on this.

April Martini 19:37
This one’s tough for me to talk about because I feel like like Ian said, sometimes you are the person in this situation. And I’ve been in this situation, quite frankly, throughout my career. But the thing we’re talking about here and and already alluded to it, you know, female firsts and so the way that society has, in some ways promoted The changes that have occurred for women, it’s very much a first one to do fill in the blank, right. And so the prestige that comes with being the first in the only feels elite, right special, like a reward exclusive. But it also can lead to the interpretation that there’s only room for one. And instead of using those first as a lead in, and then everybody else can follow because now the door has been opened. And we’re all welcome. And, you know, we, we should all be able to now do this. And thank you for being the first it becomes more of a rite of passage, pay your dues to get there type of situation. And we just talked about the fact that it’s only been 100 years again, so us, throwing up barriers, for the sake of ourselves, or being restrictive is not going to help that progress move as quickly as I think all of us want to see it. So I think our advice here is number one, if you end up in those situations, be mindful of it be inclusive, and help pay it back and help other women get there too. And also, if you’re in a situation where you’re on the receiving side of someone who’s behaving like this,

find ways to be in her corner to share her success to hopefully open her mind to the fact that there’s not only room for one, but be brave enough to have those conversations and find allies where you can.

Anne Candido 21:37
Yeah, I think this is a big one. Because I mean, it’s, it’s if you just look into your LinkedIn feed, that’s all it feels like it is, you know, first female, this first female that and, you know, I got put a blog post out about, you know, when is it going to be normal, just to say, there’s a new CEO vs. having be the first female CEO, and in that still gonna probably be a little while, you know, frankly, and honestly, but I think what I wish, you know, to tell those people who are the first is that, as you stated, April is that don’t make it, then everybody has to, again, blaze the trail behind you, that the trail should have already been blazed. It should be wide open paved. And I think the other thing we have to realize, too, is that it’s not just one position, like I mean, and that’s the thing, you know, that we all kind of think about too, is that like, oh, you know, the zero sum game comes to the fact that there’s only you know, the wine, it’s like, well, no, if we could get to the point where we’re recognizing people and people’s contributions and in their talents, then it’s open to all so it’s still might be the first fine but paved that path for everybody that’s coming behind you and don’t be part of the problem. And I had personally faced this as well. My two managers up when I was going up for my promotion, I had checked all the boxes, again, like delivering everything I could deliver. And I was told by my one minute drop that I was not going to be promoted, because my two bosses up and both these are female bosses didn’t think I was a happy person. So mind you, I was going through my divorce at that time, my two bosses didn’t even live in this country. So I was, you know, engaged, it’s very infrequently, and was like, Well, you know, you’re gonna have to, like, be her best friend, you’re when she comes into town, you’re gonna need to take her everywhere, you’re gonna have to show her that you smile, like that was the thing. I don’t smile enough. That was the feedback I was given. And I say all that just to say, Okay, I could have done one of two things here, I could have given two big middle fingers up and said, You know what, that’s ridiculous. I’m not doing that. But again, it becomes about playing the game. It’s like, alright, well, if I want to get promoted, this is a game I need to play. And so what I needed to do was I had to convince her that I was a happy person. And that actually, that process, though, was actually a good learning process for me, because when it didn’t make me very self aware that what I was going through was actually impacting the world around me and my relationships with people. And I had to be very, you know, I had to be more careful and more aware of that. But also made me a better player of the game. And it does harden you a little bit where you’re like, right, you know what, it’s not emotional. I’m not going to take it as an emotional thing. I’m not going to take it as a personal thing. I’m just gonna go play this game, and I got my promotion. And, you know, some people are gonna say, God, I can’t believe you had to do that. To do that. I’m like, Yes, I can’t believe I had to do that to do that either. And I would never have been given that same feedback. But you know, it’s just a game we have to play. And to me getting to that next step was more important than the game I had to play. I could have chose to sat out I could have gone on the bench. I could have made that choice and that’s fine, but nobody gives you As a gold star for being a martyr, I mean, you have to really kind of take it as a choice here. And I think that’s the moral of this of this particular point is that it is a choice, how you choose to play the game. It’s also a choice about being able to open the door and paved the path are people who are coming, you know, behind you. And just treating the whole thing differently the whole situation differently.

April Martini 25:26
Yeah. And really, I mean, stop talking in terms of first, right? Because, yeah, that that immediately sets that up in a negative way.

Anne Candido 25:36
Agreed. All right. So those are the four things that we wish somebody would have told us about being women in business, and now we’ve conveyed those to you. So we hope that those help you, no matter where you are, in your stage of business. Think about things maybe a little bit differently. And really, like we said, is to put the control back with you, like put you in the driver’s seat, so that you don’t feel that you’re at the whim of whatever the circumstance is. Absolutely. So it’s meant to be empowering, it’s meant to give you a different perspective for which to approach your career, your life in general. Now, we’re going to go into the trenches questions, this is going to get probably pretty personal. And that’s okay. And again, we’re going to share specific experiences that we’ve had, as well as questions that people have asked us. In this context, again, you got to do you, we’re giving you a perspective, we believe in being forthright. But please don’t take this as like, an April told me, this is the only way to go do this. Okay. So it’s just a way to kind of think about it and address things a little bit differently see through things through a slightly different lens. Okay. So the first one, I am having a baby, I’m worried the time I take away from the office will set me back, what do you think,

April Martini 26:57
and I’ve been here most recently with a five and two year old. So I can certainly speak to that. And the first thing I’ll be really honest about is, it really could, depending on how fast your business moves, how much support you have from your company, and your management. If you’re out on your own, which I was for the second of my two kids, that’s not time that you have to make revenue, if you’re the only one working, you’re not making money.

So it definitely can. But what I will say is just like everything else we’ve been talking about today is one do you like and said, but also, the more you can prepare for it and have open and honest conversations, the better off you’ll be. So with my first son, I was still working at an agency, I was lucky enough to have other females on the executive staff at that point. So that certainly helped.

And, you know, the management of the company said very overtly, we’re not going to penalize our female employees for having kids. So, you know, they were males. But still, that’s a really good situation to be in. But I think for myself, I put a lot of personal pressure on myself to exactly this point. What am I going to miss out on? What am I going to do when I come back? How am I going to make this new life work? You know, I was in meetings 40-45 hours a week. I can’t really be laid anymore. I have someone that’s relying on me, you know, yeah, I had my husband too. But he was traveling all over the world at this point. So for me, it was about being really joyful. When it was the right time for me to have kids. I was older, especially by Cincinnati standards. So I had a pretty good start on my career. I was 33 when I had Sam and 36 when I had Mia. So I had already built a pretty significant legacy for myself and reputation. I was also honest with myself that I didn’t want to work a bajillion hours anymore, and I didn’t want it to take away from time with the kids. And I wanted to be able to feel good about both sides. That’s a really nice statement to make. Then I had to go and live it. And so I had to really work very diligently and very hard. And and and I talked about testing and learning. It’s no different in this situation. For me, I made the choice to stay in touch with my team informally. I mean, legally, there are some things if you’re on maternity leave and all of that. But I did make sure to still coach a lot of the team members and give advice. I would meet them for drinks and bring the baby right along. When I was off. It served as a really good connection point. I felt like it kept my brain fresh and I could help in a different way because I was outside of it. So I was actually able to play it. I’m telling you guys this is a very light roll right but it was enough to make me feel still valued and still remembered. And like I was still a big part of the team. Then when I went back, I set very strong rules. We had a nanny She only worked these hours, there was no being late. I no longer answer emails before work, I no longer answer emails from, you know, six to eight or whatever, when Sam was awake. And then I had to stick with that. On my team, we had, again, a lot of females, like I sat in a lot of women having kids, and we did have support of the organization. And then we had to support each other, there was no guilting each other, there was no, you know, if you have to leave, someone else will cover it. But you know, we tried to do that more from those of us that had kids instead of penalizing others. So there’s all these dynamics that happen. There can and there are, and I’ve seen situations where people careers do suffer, you know, expectations are too high, you’re supposed to be there for 60 hours a week, you know, all of these types of things. But this is a big one of doing you. Because quite frankly, as I said, at the beginning, I wasn’t even sure that I wanted kids. When I decided that I wanted kids, I really wanted kids. And I wanted to be a very active part of their life. The same way my mom was, even though she was stay at home for a large portion. I didn’t want to sacrifice that because I worked and I wanted my kids to be proud of the fact that I worked. So

Anne Candido 31:13
yeah, and I think what I like what you said about the fact that it can go either way, right? Go either one go either way. And I think what you have to realize is that it’s a, again, a choice a you have to make. Yep. And you need to make the choice based on what is more important for you. Yeah, because it’s fine. If your career is more important than your kids is totally fine. You shouldn’t feel shame about it, you shouldn’t feel guilt about it, you shouldn’t like other people make you feel shame or guilt about it. If your career is more important than your kids and your kids are playing a different mode, that is totally fine. We’re not here to say you’re a bad mom, or even like for the men listening a bad dad, if you can’t be there, or you can’t prioritize a way you need to prioritize it. But you got to realize that there’s consequences either way, right? So and you got to, like weigh that in. And sometimes it’s shift. Sometimes you start one way, and you shift the other. I mean, I can tell you, when I started, I was basically like a single mom, my husband traveled Monday through Friday, I wanted to solve a career, I could not handle being at home by myself, it was really, really tough for me. I used to say if I’m if you weren’t Dr. Phil, I couldn’t like even process what you’re saying to the point when I got to work. And I was like, Why is everybody talking so fast? I mean, it was, it was bad, you know, and so but I needed that I needed that adult stimulation in order to be sane, especially with my husband traveling all the time. So my kids did go to daycare, I picked him up, I was one of the first ones to be there when the last ones to leave, right. And you know, that was good for them in that kind of context was good for me to as a person to have that stimulus and to continue to move my career along. But now 20 years later, I’m enjoying the fact that I’m an entrepreneur, and we have a more flexible schedule. And now I’m taking I don’t have any any more. I’m taking my kids to practices, I’m I’m taking them, you know, choosing the middle of the day, it’s like when they were on a snow day, I was like, Hey, let’s go play on the snow for a little bit. And I could do that. And I have that flexibility. So it’s going to ebb and flow depending on where you are. And that’s fine, too. But I got to make the choice based on what’s going to be best for you. It’s the only way to go here. Yeah,

April Martini 33:25
I think that’s totally fair. I mean, one of the things that I knew and stated overtly right off the bat is, God bless the nannies out there and the women that can stay at home with their kids. I am not built that way. Like Ian said, and I got some flack for making that statement sometimes. But I can tell you with absolute certainty, I am a better mom to my kids. Because I work I just am I assume I am a better person. I’m a more mentally healthy person. And I just show up better for them. And when we’re together, we’re together. And when I’m working, I’m working. And it works for me. But you know, that’s that’s just it, you have to choose and then keep with the decision or change it if you need to, but be true to you.

Anne Candido 34:12
Yep. All right. The second in the trenches question. I’m constantly being told that I’m exceeding expectations with regards to my work, but others are getting promoted over me what is going on? Again, another super sensitive one. And I talked a little bit about this when I was mentioning a couple of my previous experiences, and I think it’s really important to again, reiterate here that you can blame the situation all right, and you may not even be wrong. Like for me, it was, oh, they have more supporters than me pulling them up. They’re riding the coattails of others in my house. I’m like riding my coattails. It pays to be nice even if you’re not that good or this is a boys club. And really all those things can be totally right i mean and nasty girl The frustrating part about it is that you could be totally right. But what I was failing to recognize in that position and that situation, which, you know, I shared pretty openly is that there is a reality whether I liked it or not. And the reality was that what I was putting forth was not what they wanted to promote. And this was even into my, the second promotion and even beyond the one that I was telling you about where I had to figure out how to smile more. But what I really had to do is I had to go back into my personal brand and really look at my characteristics, I had to look at my appearance, I had to figure out how those were manifesting, and behaviors and actions that weren’t working for me. And I had to be really, really honest about it. And then I had to face some really cold hard truths that I had, like, built some tapes that were contained, to be played, that I had to undo. And those tapes were again, kind of along the lines of the alpha female side that, you know, I had a reputation as being kind of edgy, I had a reputation as being very direct, very transparent. So these things that are also could be perceived as strong personal qualities, were not being perceived that way in certain situations. And so that reputation was really hard to undo. So again, I could have chosen, you know, the two big middle fingers approach, or I could I were, I could say, Okay, well, what did I have to do now in order to be able to show them that I am the right person, because frankly, they’re working to promote me otherwise, it doesn’t matter how good my work was, the softer skill stuff, no matter if you’re male, or a female usually is what gets people stuck. And so I I’d like to say that I was able to, to take all that and process through it and be able to change everybody’s mind. But I didn’t, I mean, the tapes were just had been run for 20 years, it was gonna probably take me a whole lot longer in order to do that. So I had a really, like, reassessed on why I was doing this. And why was it so important to me? And is this was the still the place for me. And that’s where it kind of hit me that like, okay, even if I got promoted, I’m not sure that I still would have been fulfilled, I wanted to strike. But I was like, I don’t actually want to do the work. And so that’s the other thing I want to say here is like, part of it, yeah, if you’re not getting promoted, and you feel like you should be, it’s probably something along the lines of your personal branding, and not quite recognizing or not quite embracing, but also might be to the point where you’ve gone to a position where you’re really in it might not even be something that you’re like totally innately aware of. But like, what you’re looking for is not jiving with actually who you are. And at that point, what I the decision that came to as ironic as it sounds, is, I outgrew p&g, and it was time for me to move on. And that’s what I decided to do. So, a couple of different ways of looking at that. But April, I know you had similar kind of things happen to you too. Yeah,

April Martini 38:05
I mean, the first thing I will say is in the agency world, it’s pretty expected that you jump around. So if you really get stuck, you can just change agencies. Which I, which I did, but um, you know, in all seriousness, I was lucky enough to have really strong supporters early on, that could give me feedback and continue to be a part of my life to this day, in a way that I was willing to hear and work on now. Did I drag my feet? Did I push back? Did I say no, that’s not the case? Did I give all the examples that and said like, well, he just doesn’t like me, or you know, that client thinks that I speak my mind too much. I’m not gonna stop doing that, like, yes, all of those things. But what you heard and say it and the same thing that I tried to do is once I got over the emotion associated with whatever the feedback was, it was to take that hard look, and see if there was actually truth to it. And sometimes there wasn’t, quite frankly, sometimes it was just someone trying to cut me down or that didn’t like me, or whatever the case might be. But in most of the incidents, there was something that I could proactively work on for myself. And so early on, I was known as a ballbuster. I was a hard charger that came with a good definition and a negative definition. Sometimes, I did leave people behind. I did get frustrated when people didn’t do what I thought they should be doing. And I was written all over my face. I still have no poker face, although I work very hard to manage it. I just don’t. And so if I had not learned to take what are inherently my characteristics as a person, the things that I can’t change, but to manage them or play the game, as Anne said, or to look at both sides and learn how to work better with people And remember that the best work actually happens when you have a really strong team, I wouldn’t have ever gotten to the success that I got to. So we’ve talked already today about, you know, it’s okay, if you do get your feelings hurt, and you have to take a little time to process and all of that. But the people that are gonna make the change, or the people that are going to personally succeed are the ones that take whatever situation they’re in, find a way that they can manage through it or change it or depart like and sad in some cases, and then move on and be better for it.

Anne Candido 40:35
Alright, the next question is actually on the flip side. So I recently got promoted. And I overheard people talking that they don’t believe I was as qualified as other candidates. And I just got the promotion because I’m a woman, how do I deal with this? And yes, this happened, and it happened to guys. It really the only thing you can do here is prove them wrong, it’s really the only thing you can do. The one thing you don’t want to get, you don’t want to do is get stuck in the imposter syndrome, and prove them. Right? Right. So this is something you’re gonna have to actually own it or not. So you either you’re going to take the role that somebody has given you that somebody feels you’re justified to have, own it, do the job, show everybody wrong, or again, crumble under the injustice of it all and feel bad that people don’t feel like you’re supposed to be there. Now, this is also where it can help to put that little bit of an internal chip on your shoulder to just to motivate you a little bit, don’t put the external chip on your shoulder, because that only has a that does just never, it just never goes well at all. So you don’t want to like intentionally, you know, tried to be combative or divisive, or anything like that. And we’re like trying to get them back or you know, that stuff never works, the best way to overcome this is by demonstrating it through your actions. Now, I want to say you know, don’t like I said don’t don’t like, lower yourself to the level of the haters. But if the hating is to the point where it’s emotionally, or it’s doing something or you can’t do your job, you need to go talk to somebody about that you need to go through the appropriate channels to do that. So we’re not saying that you should put up with any kind of behavior that’s in any way inappropriate. But if it’s, you know, the, the dynamics of the like the typical corporate dynamics, just don’t bow down to it. Yeah. And

April Martini 42:41
I think this is one of the easiest ways to rise above a lot of the stuff that we’re talking about. And not get caught up in or wallow in or allowed to ruin part of your career. If you hear this type of stuff going on. I mean, I think if you can like answer if it’s a it’s a real problem, it’s a real problem. That’s a different situation we’re talking about. But a lot of times these kind of rumblings. If it wasn’t this, it would be something else. And so I think if you can take it for that, and you’re able to operate day to day with that perspective, in the long run, it will make you stronger, because you will have heard it and proven the opposite.

Anne Candido 43:19
Yeah, I think that’s right on. Alright, number four, I am a woman in a male dominated field. I feel like I’m struggling to get their respect. How do I do this, and me and April are going to tag team this because we both have different perspectives from different industry. So I, you guys know me, I think I’ve told you guys that I started out as an engineer, so I was a mechanical engineer. At a time when when I graduated, there was like 25 mechanical engineers in my class, and there was only three women. So you know that it was a male dominated field. And then I went into packaging, which was another male dominated field. So a lot of experience in that from an engineering standpoint, or manufacturing standpoint, and that sort of thing. And it’s kind of similar to how do you prove Nate? What I was saying before about how do you prove out naysayers Is that you, the best thing you can do is do good work. And show them that you know you’re highly capable that you’re you’re here for a reason, and really become a student of what you are doing. And that’s not in a way that like, I’m going to try to prove you wrong again, or I’m going to try to prove you that I’m smarter than you. But you need to show that you can hang you need to gain their respect. And that involves is asking questions, being there and going over things until you get them right. Making sure that you have the full knowledge and credibility of whatever industry is around you that could Help, whether it’s the trainings or any kind of the certain credential. So think about everything that you could do in order to showcase that you are truly in a position because you are smart enough to hang and you’re qualified to hang. It also may help to get to know what those guys like to talk about. For me, it was, it helped that I grew up in a family that loved NFL football. So I was able to talk football, so when they talk football, I could talk football, and they thought that was pretty impressive. If you happen to be out somewhere, and you see, you know, this, these groups of guys, like a lot of times, there’s there’s happy hours, by around the drinks, you don’t necessarily need to join him, I would say you don’t want to crash their party, but you know, buy a round of drinks, and you know, just extend that a little bit of an olive branch and, you know, show, hey, I’m here and I, you know, I want to be part of this. Don’t intentionally try to be the outsider, I think is what I’m saying. It’s like, try to extend and build the bridges. And it always helps to where you can is to raise them up, say nice things about them that are actually true. You don’t have to, you know, like invent things. Yeah. To their superiors. Um, you know, if you’re in a meeting, you know, you could just make a nod and say, hey, you know, you had a really good point about the this thing the other day, can you reiterate that. So just make it a more of a collaborative, cohesive environment. And I think you’d be surprised about how easily it it is to win men over. If they know you can hang they know, you know, what you’re talking about, you make them look good. I mean, those are like, the quintessential things and make these guys happy. Do not bring in cookies for them do not like do like the motherly or the wifey things, make sure that you’re playing the role within the professional realm. Or if you’re in the manufacturing area the same way. So you don’t need to win them over by trying to Mother them or be their wife. Yeah,

April Martini 47:06
not to throw any stereotypes out there. But

Anne Candido 47:11
we’re gonna be forthright. So I mean, I feel like that’s a big thing that sometimes, you know, happens happens that I think sets women back is so yeah, yeah,

April Martini 47:22
and I would say, too, I mean, my industry wasn’t so starkly dominated like that, where proportions of my design classes were that far off, or that sort of thing. I will say that my MBA class was disproportionately males in the finance field of some kind in their 40s. And that was a little bit tough, but I think and approaches, right, which is, you be the one to proactively break down the barriers that are there, and try to figure it out. So whether it was in class, you know, it was like, there were like a handful of us that were just out of undergrad going to get our MBA. And then you know, like I said, I mean, it was I mean, it had to be at least more than a third of my class of 25, or whatever. You know, my girlfriend, and I were like, Well, hey, they have a lot more experience than we do. They seem a little iffy about joining us, let’s go join them. And we were able to learn from each other. And since I had a design background, I brought those skills, you know, she had a medical background, which brought a unique perspective, you know, so that, if you can’t beat them join them kind of mentality. And I mean, there’s two or three of them now that still today that I keep in touch with. And there was very much though, to Anne’s point, mutual respect, and a leveling of the playing field in those conversations. I would say similarly, when I went out, and you know, I was on the business side now, not a designer so much anymore, but still within the creative field. And I’ve already mentioned that, at the top, definitely more male dominated, male owned, male executive, all that kind of stuff. But I didn’t necessarily have to worry about that coming in, I had to worry more about proving my chops and thickening my skin and being able to find ways to kind of be one of the guys. I mean, I think Ian’s point is spot on, it was it was not necessarily acting like a dude or anything like that. But it was like, you know, they like to bust each other’s chops, I could jump right in on that. And they made a joke about me, I was totally cool with that. And I had a response coming. And again, those are guys that I still am tight with today. But it does require some proactivity and bravery on your part, and also just kind of swallowing your pride of the whole, like, it really shouldn’t be this way, but it is I just didn’t I try not to waste too much time on that I tried to get to a solution that was going to work, given whatever situation that I was in. And I like to think that my career rewarded me I think I’ve talked about this before, but I mean, as a 23 year old kid, I was helping the CEO of one of my organizations with a merger and acquisition. It was kind of his his right hand. And I was exposed very early on to conversations that I didn’t know what to do with then. But as my career has progressed, it has taught me so much about how business works. So I think the point here is just to to be open, should we always have to be the ones? Fixing, figuring it out? Whatever? No, but somebody has to do it. So be proactive and figure out a way to make

Anne Candido 50:21
it work. Yeah. And that goes back to the trailblazing and Yep. You know, and all those points that we had talked about earlier. And I think the point that you made to or I took away from it is about not taking it personally. Yeah. It’s, it’s, they are who they are to. Yes. And, you know, I try to remember too, that you know, guys need camaraderie. When guys are hanging around a lot. They tend to build that camaraderie and it’s a guy thing. And it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you, it just means that you’re kind of different. Yes. It takes a little bit more of your effort in order to like, make it all work. And again, should it have to be like that? No, I mean, but again, it’s the game, you know, it’s playing the game, you can use it either choose to play the game if you choose to sit the bench so

April Martini 51:08
well. And also, like, don’t over simplify it in some of these cases. I mean, like, when I talked about that first design job, three of the guys had gone to high school together, they had worked at the company together for six or seven years, were they known as the bro club? Yes. Did they come by some of that? Honestly, yes, there were other factors at play. So I think that’s exactly right. Like you, you have to really assess what you’re actually dealing with, and then solve it through that lens. Yeah,

Anne Candido 51:32
I agree. Alright, so this actually sets us up nicely for the next one here. So I feel like I have to work twice as hard as my male counterparts, and I can’t make mistakes. I’m sacrificing personal time and time with my family to do this. And what’s worse, I don’t feel like I’m getting anywhere, what should I do? And I think the first thing that we would say is, do you really, really have to work twice as hard? And you can’t make us mistakes? Or is this something that is perceived in your brain because of the situation that you are in? And I say this because one of my other bosses used to tell us middle managers that he loved all of us because we were a group of insecure overachievers. Which means we’ll work our butts off, because we are like trying to get better than the person next to us, you know, and we’re all, you know, pretty smart people. And that’s an ideal middle manager mindset, really, and so you gotta have to really like kind of check yourself because I think the thing I learned the most after I left P&G was in looking back at it was like, you know, what, I only really got recognized for maybe 75-80% of what I did. It didn’t matter how hard I worked, it didn’t matter. Like, what was like, what actually I even like, the scope of work, or the body of work I did, it was like a couple of things that matter to somebody. And it was also the way in which I did it. So again, when we went back to the softer skills and and the way that I approached the work, it was all that in the package. And it also was did I have the right support at that time, was like, you know, that my reputation at that time. And I say that all because you know, we get so wrapped up in our in our careers, because we all feel like we have to outwork the person next to us. But sometimes it’s about working more smartly, then it is harder, and making sure you’re working on the right things. At the right time, you’re involving the right people, you’re getting the right exposure, so that you can make those things that you’re doing work harder for you, versus all the stuff you have to do or all the meetings you need to participate in, or all the calls you have to take or, you know, we’ve talked about the fear of missing out being like a huge detriment to people’s productivity and being able to really deliver big things. So I would say like really think about, is this really something that is true? Or is it something that you have built up in your mind? Because of some sort of situation that’s going on? Either either can be true? I’m not saying that, you know, one true and one’s not true. But I’m saying you have to just internalize it a little bit more in see because at the end of the day we teach people how to treat us and so if that’s what you believe, then that’s what people are gonna believe of you well then yeah, you can’t make mistakes. You know why? Because you have taught you know, your managers that that’s a thing that you’re it’s your that’s critical to you and that you’re not going to like to handle so then yeah. So be careful about what you’re putting out there because you may be your own worst enemy here. Yeah,

April Martini 54:55
I completely agree. I mean, I’ve been part of cultures and you know, agencies also But known for this historically where I work 70 hours a week, I work 72 hours a week, I work 76 hours a week, and it becomes this competition. And there’s a dashboard and you know, everyone trying to one up each other. And I can tell you that those were the least productive times in my life. And that was a male, not a male, female thing that was just like an in total thing. Versus to Anne’s point, when I learned to play the game a little better, take a step back, look at the landscape, see really what was very real, which is hard to do when you’re in the middle of the situation, but really assess, and then go tackle those things that were most important to the team or to the boss or to the whatever, and put those first, whether I agreed with it or not, in every instance, always made a greater impact. And over time, I feel like it just it made me far better at my job because I was able to inherently look at things from all angles. And I think that’s kind of the point of this one, right? Don’t oversimplify something, you know, yes, these things can happen. But just make sure it’s true. But then also, you know, make sure that you’re really digesting and looking at everything first before you jump to a conclusion. Yeah.

Anne Candido 56:09
All right. 6. As a woman, is it important to have a female mentor? Are there benefits to having a male mentor?

April Martini 56:17
One of our famous answers, it depends. I think there are benefits on both sides. There are also different moments in time, where you are in your career, what you’re trying to achieve. I mean, all of those things change. And we actually just did an episode on coaching. So that one’s out there and gives more specifics around this in total. But I would say choose carefully. But also think about what you’re trying to get out of the relationship, and who’s better suited, regardless of gender. Or if gender is playing a role. Like if you’re in a situation where you’re like I as a female and having trouble and my team is all male, and it’s me, then that might be a reason to lean into someone that has been there before that can help you manage that. I will say that there have been times in my career because of the male dominance factor where I’ve purposely sought out female support just because I needed someone who thought a little bit more like I did, or like I just said, had experiences in those ways. And that really could give the perspective versus other times where I had males who taught me to be a little tougher, or to think about it through their lens, or, you know, there were a couple instances where there were a couple of designers that happened to be male that I was really going head to head with from a strategic perspective and how to better manage that. And so I think the answer really is it depends. Choose the person for the situation you’re in, and what’s best for your career in that moment. And don’t be afraid to change if situations change and you need someone new. We’ve talked about that in that episode as well. Go ahead and do that. But choose mentors based on the outages and your current situations where you can get support that you’re not getting in your role, and that can be in your corner and given an honest perspective.

Anne Candido 58:11
Yeah, I agree with that. I think because of the zero sum female game, sometimes a female mentor can feel really contrived, fair, especially if there’s a lot of competition there. So I think you shouldn’t feel like you need to have one in order to be able to function as a as a female, although it can feel good to have female mentorship, so you don’t feel as alone. So I think that’s a really good point as Deray gray. Yeah, do it where you feel like who’s the best person to give you the best advice in the position you need? And then are they balanced out with the emotional support you feel like you need and if you need something a little bit more formalized. As we’ve talked in our the coaching and mentoring episode is paid for it. i Some pay for the coaching that you feel like you need, I had a female coach, and I thought she was fantastic. So yeah, so I think that’s a really good, really good points. And our final in the trenches question, is it possible to have a strong support system and the women around you versus the competition you have mentioned of being the only or at the top?

April Martini 59:19
Short answer. I’m all about the short answers. And these last two. Yes, absolutely. Just like anything else, good and bad examples of women supporting versus not supporting each other. We’ve all experienced both. That same example I was talking about with early on trying to infiltrate the boys club, I was really, really lucky to have a group of women with 10-15 years more experience than me who pulled me into their circle and really made a concerted effort, even if somewhat informally to help me become a better professional. A lot of times that was stuff like reining in my emotions. I talked about being you know, a little bit of a ballbuster maybe to direct all of those types of Things I mean, God bless them, they are still great friends of mine, but they would let me go to lunch and like the first 15 minutes of lunch would just be me spewing all over the place about what was happening to me in every any given instance. And I think I got into the habit of buying the volcano roll for the table, so they would listen to me for the first 15 minutes. But in any case, you know, that was a really positive example. Fast forward to when I had kids, I mentioned that organization, there were a lot of women having kids, we really helped each other out, you know, we were we kind of insulated the group. So if someone had to leave, we wouldn’t say it was about the kids, a lot of times you just say, Oh, she had to go, she had an appointment, you know, whatever. We worked really hard for that for each other so that there was no bias from that perspective. Are there situations like we’ve talked about with jealousy, you know, being the only one undercutting competition? Of course there are. But there’s also just really good examples. And as I look back on my career, honestly, it’s, it’s pretty much a balance of both, which is a like a lot of situations in business, you know, you find your people when you’re looking in the right places, and you commit to them as well. And that’s, you know, the good experiences were on that side versus, you know, you don’t like everyone you work with all the time. And that’s also a very strong reality. So there you go. Yeah. And

Anne Candido 1:01:13
I think that’s very well said, and I’m sure, much more to add to that. So I Yeah, because I think that’s very well said very well said is it kind of goes back to the question of before you find what you need in order to survive, it may not necessarily be within your organization, you may not need to look outside your organization, and that’s totally fine. And sometimes you just need, you know, good girlfriends, right? You know, and maybe girlfriends who have been there done that or have, you know, are in a different industry or something that you could just like you said, kind of commiserate with that or allowing you to get that outlet, without having to necessarily have like a some sort of like relationship that’s a mentoring or coaching relationship. So yeah, sometimes just have to be more thoughtful about how you’re going to get that. So okay, guys, our third segments, usually, I’m a real world example of a brand who’s doing this real not so well. And that doesn’t really make a ton of sense here. So we’re just give you a ton of perspective here. And I’m sure you guys as heads or maybe swimming a little bit. Because it’s just so much, you know, to kind of pack into, you know, the hour that we’ve talked about. So we thought maybe we’ll just kind of ended here and just reiterate the point that this was all in an attempt, again, to make you more empowered as you’re approaching your career in your life. So that you can see that and recognize that yes, there is a game being played here and you have a choice when you’re gonna play the game are not trying to give you the rules of the game a little bit from a bunch of different perspectives, as well as like help you see the consequences from both sides. And really just let you guys know, it’s okay. Whatever you decide is okay, but you have to make a choice. And you have to honor that choice. You can make a different choice later on down the line as well. But just wanted you guys to have that information based on what we wish somebody would have told us about women in business. And with that, go exercise your Marketing Smarts!

April Martini 1:03:25
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